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Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
Now cloaking at the moment takes 30 space and reduces scanner range to 25%,
which is 25 units for the best scanners. This means that even when my planets
were close (about 25 units) I still could not see his fleet that took my
planet!!! So clearly the cloak tek is very powerful. Perhaps too powerful.

I posted the never ending "Reputation is broken" message, so here is a "Cloak
is broken" post. Cloak is too powerful. I suggest making it more "expensive" to
properly reflect its usefulness/power. It should take at least double of
current space allocation, so 60 space, if not more. That way there is less
space for guns and bombs, so that they would be limited to hit and run missions
and could not be used for proper invasion fleets.

Moreover, we could introduce a new variant called "Stealth" that takes the
current space allocation, 30 space, but is less effective, say rudcing scanner
range to 60%. That way you could still get some hiding effect, but use less
space to do it.

As it stands now, there is no reason to build anything but cloaked fighters, at
least until one can build good cruiser fighters. They are just too good. (my
mistake was in thinking that cloak was still 50%, didn't realize there was a
change to 25%).


This has been suggested by bob_ninja in the thread Galaxy Beta 23 end. I wonder what does everyone else think about that suggestion?
14.06.2007 23:53 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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are a lot of people using it now? Personally i love it but i am not sure its caught on. Isn't that the reason you made it this powerful in the first place, to get more people to use it? It might be to powerful now but until it gains widespread use all we have is anecdotal evidence.

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I like the idea of having two "levels" of cloak. That way the full 25% cloak can be moved further down the tech tree, and only become available latter on.

I also agree what uncountednose said in the other thread, though: Better to just increase the cost, not the space, or nobody will use it. It only works on light ships, and space is really at a premium on light ships. Of course, you can increase the cost by a lot, I think. Right now, it costs 85. I think it would be reasonable for it to cost as much as 300. Make it so putting a cloak on a corvette is liable to as much as double the cost of the ship, and then you're faced with the agonizing choice of one cloaked corvette or two uncloaked corvettes in the same period of time.
15.06.2007 00:31 HeruFeanor is offline Send an Email to HeruFeanor Search for Posts by HeruFeanor Add HeruFeanor to your Buddy List
Lost Cause Player-Rank: 2 Lost Cause is a male
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Perhaps it could be tapered depending on ship size.
most effective on shuttles
less so on corvettes
and least on friggates.

adding new cloak units could imrpve the effectivness
like 2 for corvettes and 3 for friggates to get up to the same level as shuttles.

I Love cloak. It's all that is keeping my ships alive in 29 right now.

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15.06.2007 00:31 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
Rismagi Player-Rank: 3 Rismagi is a male
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Such low building cost and upkeep cost was a mistake. But I don't think required space should be changed.

Idea of 2 cloaking modules is good. Lost Cause's idea is even better.


Maybe this will help too Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Rismagi
"Search ships|cloaked ships within specific unit range of specific plantet/sun/ship|at an arbitrary point in space|nearest sun"

Rule send assigned ships to random, but different raily points outside of line of sight (which is less in the case of cloaked ships).
15.06.2007 10:59 Rismagi is offline Send an Email to Rismagi Search for Posts by Rismagi Add Rismagi to your Buddy List
Apus Player-Rank: 2 Apus is a male
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The cloacking device still reduce ship speed significantly. I think it is good now Smile
If you want to feel secure from cloacked ships then you should build a net of radars Smile
Lost cause, how many ships do you have at the moment. I saw a few flying around Smile

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Lost Cause Player-Rank: 2 Lost Cause is a male
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Ahhhhhh Decided to begin peace talks then ey?
I knew I'd were you down eventualy. Tongue


Yes, they are scattered about half the systems in the galaxy.

The half you don't own.

The majority of them are just escape ships. All they have are engins and pilot cabbins, they left from my last few planets before you captured them.
Though it turns out I still have a few of my frigates.

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uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Apus
If you want to feel secure from cloacked ships then you should build a net of radars Smile


thats not a practical option.

also cloaking device has a good space to unit ratio so it doesn't really decrease speed anymore than any other component as is. we are suggesting increasing the build and maintenance cost.

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15.06.2007 15:43 uncountednose is offline Send an Email to uncountednose Search for Posts by uncountednose Add uncountednose to your Buddy List
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I wouldn't increase support cost for cloaking devices.
as is they are all that is keeping my ships alive Tongue
There should always be a way to survive total losses!
The cloaking device is a very handy run away and hide option.

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15.06.2007 15:49 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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Anyway Smile I vote for leaving cloaking device as it is now

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berek Player-Rank: 2
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As part of the cloaking device has to counter the ship scanners, cloaking strength could increase with the level of scanning technology.

Four levels of scanner could mean four levels of cloaking strength.
For example: 70%, 55%, 40%, 25%.
Space should not be increased by to much if at all since only light ships can fit a cloak.

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quickstrike Player-Rank: 2 quickstrike is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by berek
Four levels of scanner could mean four levels of cloaking strength.
For example: 70%, 55%, 40%, 25%.


Hmm...not sure about that. At first, I thought this was a good idea, but now that I think about it, if we apply 40% and 25% as late techs, then late techs imply acquiring them mid-to-late game. Later in the game, there are more heavier ships. If I acquired 25% cloaked technology when my enemy already has destroyers being pumped out, I really doubt I will even continue making light class ships. I would start going for heavy class which makes the cloaked tech useless (that's just my strategy, others might play differently).

There is also the possibility of having a fleet consists of varying cloaking technology, and having to know whether my fleet is 70%, 55%, or 40% cloaked strength (unless, of course, when you acquire the tech, it automatically applies to already produced cloaked ships, but as we see with Scanner Ranges, we don't automatically update already produced ships with greater range).


BTW: Nice to see you back on here again, berek. Hopefully we'll cross paths again in IRC.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by quickstrike: 15.06.2007 20:22.

15.06.2007 20:19 quickstrike is offline Send an Email to quickstrike Search for Posts by quickstrike Add quickstrike to your Buddy List
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There is no need to change the strengh or size, but if it was going to be changed you should have the option to put more than one device on it, like you can with weapons and engines, so you can make it more powerful. When players design ships some pefer speed, or power, I think stealth is you best weapon.
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well quickstrike, one nice thing about building cloaked frigates late in the game is that the best weapons are heavy ship weapons and thats what people use on their ships. this results in an effective doubling of your hitpoints along with the cloaking. bob made some anti-light cruisers in 23 but they seemed rather expensive for the amount of firepower you get. but thats off-topic i guess.

I do not like the idea of increasing cloak tech the way that berek suggested. as i have already pointed out cloaking gains are already exponential as scanner tech increases(assuming latest scanner on both ships)

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Does using a deep space scan on a system reveal the movement of cloaked ships inside that system?
If so it could be quite useful to turn it in on your own systems every once in a while.

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Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Erwin [CS]
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The system-scan is considered a temporary scanning-sensor positioned at the sun of that system, that scans twice as far as your current scanner technology. However, the cloaking rule applies to that sensor as well. That means it would only uncloak ships that are pretty close to the sun...

I assume we should change that. The cloaking rule should not apply to that type of "sensor", instead all cloaked ships inside the system should become visible (for the duration of 3 turns).
16.06.2007 12:06 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
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that would make the, now relatively useless, system scan more useful.

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Personaly I dont see the use of a system scan.
It's tough to research,
Adds to the cost of anything you do afterward,
and only has a slightly better effect than sending in your own cloaked scout which at least will be reusable provided it survives.
If the scan revealed hidden ships as well then it might be something worth the time and effort.

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It's kind of odd.
that branch of the teck tree is on it's own, unlinked to anything else in the teck tree so you could get everything else without it,
all it is good for is scans but not sencors and the ability to get +2 research per sciantist, but by actualy researching it to that point you add 5 extra tecks to the cost on anything else you want to get.
I admit the military camp and the militar accadamy are nice, but it takes a heck of a long time to get anything more than a rank 3 soldiar even with both and that's only a 30% bonus on whatever current weapons you have, and you could probably research a better weapon if you had spent the resorces getting other tecks.

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already discussed here

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