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Sr._buttmunch Player-Rank: 2
Scouts his own Systems


Registration Date: 01.08.2007
Posts: 27

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quote:
Originally posted by pommiebastard


I definitely saw that low tech ships can hold there own against better fancier super frigates, My fleet of proton frigates when I finally massed them were much more powerful then the scary Aquaman Super frigates. I felt that by conducting the entire war in your territory the outcome was going to be telling. we lost 34 planets at about turn 135 and I knew we needed to make sure that you lost that many or more and between Spidy and Me we made sure you lost that many or more. of coarse we needed Big daddy and all our siblings in order to accomplish what we did.


Pommiebastard.


I agree with your conclusion about ships. With cloaked ships, all you need is to be fast and aggressive. I had to sacrifice fire power for speed to catch your ships and stupidly built a bomber/troop fleet to retake the planets you took. I really needed flash's cooperation to take back his systems but I think he gave up by then so I couldn't do all firepower.

Superfrigates are best for supporting main fleet imo. They're fast enough to catch up to main fleet and tough as nails.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Sr._buttmunch: 04.01.2015 07:49.

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tingling Player-Rank: 4 tingling is a male
Wins even when not in your Galaxy


Registration Date: 17.11.2010
Posts: 4,210

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Below is a write-up of how I remembered the Tactical TG (I may be wrong about some details - but shouldn't be far off..)

Sorry for the big wall of text..

Getting a foothold in the river

We started the galaxy with Elric and I as vanguards leading the front line - the idea being that both of us would send ships to scout the river systems and hunt enemy ships.. then commit colony ships once we have an idea where to colonise our allocated 5 planets on the river. Galactus had earlier suggested to go for the center, right at their doorsteps, and it turned out to be great that I found planets with 50 base production stats in each of 5/1/2 and 5/2/2 - which was what we wanted - at the edge of their side of the river.

So I set out to colonise those two planets with quantum vette colony ships. But after I saw that the other team had colonised all their 5 planets in 4/1/2 and 4/2/2, which were dead centre and isolated my 5/y/z planets from the rest of my systems, I only then realised the problem that we would face in getting to those river planets, especially with the fact that I couldn’t get breeder planets near those planets (although one of the 50 production planets also had 50 food, and both were in excess of 420 planet space).

The idea initially was to transport troops to those planets as a first line of defense. But after peacefully making the first round, Sailor Moon and co. started to meddle in our affairs, and hunted down our transports. We lost a couple (who were empty thankfully and on their way home), but we had to stop all troop transports from venturing into the river, and reassigned them to transport troops between my breeders and shipyards in my home systems.

The first blow

I was already planning to invest research into planetary defences, but the lack of troop supply to those frontier planets meant I needed to go to PD4 or 5 even faster than I had initially planned - so I had to sacrifice most of my ship tech. I did however get some core ship techs - gravity drives, beams and frigates - which meant I could start contributing to the fleet that The Thing had started to assemble. I noticed the other team were only assembling corvettes, and (foolishly) dismissed the threat - seeing that the score charts didn’t show much difference between the teams.

The Thing tried to move our ships to a central location and closer to their system - despite us not having any attacking capability (i.e. no troops nor bombers in our fleet). Thinking that the mere threat of our fleets there should prompt them to go on the defensive as well, and should have made The Presence (who was the only in the river) research defences, I thought we would have nothing to lose with the idea. But Sailor Moon and the rest of the Red Team had other plans, carefully moving his fleet so we never even noticed they were nearby. We were aware they had a fleet, but were totally oblivious that they were within striking distance. And so the big first fleet battle occurred, and our frigates lost to a swarm of corvettes. They had a plan to contain us - and it seemed to be working.

Losing the second fleet

We continued building more ships, with Xavier and Iron Man both also now ready to build ships - or at least ready by their own admission. I was sort of horrified to know that they were still building quantum drive ships, and travelling at 30+ speed, but thought perhaps we could make use of those by building a slow bulldozer fleet with attacking capability. There were a swarm of corvettes heading to a newly assembled fleet together with The Thing and myself (Elric had been researching scanning technology, and was busy building cloaked subspace or even hyperspace scanning scouts to send into the enemy river and later into enemy territory). Looking at all the converging ships, I thought surely with 4 shipbuilders contributing to a fleet, we should be able to hold some ground - even though we noticed a stream of enemy corvettes streaming to their river planets as well. At some point, Galactus, who was designated to peak later after rushing tech, had started to contribute destroyers to the fleet too. So we had a decent fleet I thought.

When there were voices on the team calling for us to start moving our fleet and doing something with it, the team started to move our fleet closer to their river systems again. I was a bit worried that without attacking capability, we weren’t going to achieve a lot except baiting them towards us by revealing our fleet position (or worse, that’d give them a chance to go around our fleet and hit our systems). I guessed their river systems were probably strongly defended, but again (foolishly) dismissed that their fleets of corvettes shouldn’t stand a chance against The Thing and my frigates, and less so against Galactus’s heavy ships.

Getting back up after a low point

And so, a second battle occurred. Again, we underestimated their fleet strength and lost most of our fleets. At this point, my usual tendency to surrender crept in, thinking that defeat was inevitable at this point, and I suggested that we throw in the towel. I had thought that without air superiority, nor attacking capabilities, we didn’t really stand a chance against the Red Horde, and it would be a matter of time before they started moving through our systems. What was worse, tech scans revealed that many of their players were in front of us in technology too - even in front of Galactus, our most advanced tech player in the team.

Xavier then crucially stepped up and told me that giving up was silly thinking - with us having not lost any planets yet. So while I wasn’t entirely convinced (foolishly), I started building bombers and troopers this time, forgoing the struggle for air superiority, and totally ignored the new fleet that Galactus and The Thing were building up (assuming that it would be in vain since we had too much ground to catch up after the 2 losses we suffered). Calls for more troopships and bombers went largely unanswered though - with most teammates content with streaming their fighter ships to the new fleet, so I set about to building my own assault fleet.

Losing patience

Frankly, I had gotten slightly frustrated at some point that we seemed to be heading to the same disaster again. Perhaps what was more frustrating was that Sailor Moon and the rest had set up an effective blockade at their river systems, and the frustration got to a point where I recklessly created an admiral that crewed my ships and sent them forward towards enemy territory. I then selected all the troopships and bombers on the galaxy map (which didn’t have cloaking modules because I didn’t have the tech yet) and assigned them the admiral - sending them to almost certain death. I was holding to hope that the other team “might” not have scouts in the area in front of my systems - which proved to be just a downright foolish assumption.

I lost half of my ships due to the recklessness. While some did manage to get to my river planets, it was little consolation, and they were probably useless on their own. But then after I managed to get scilabs, and subsequently researched cloaking devices, I started building cloaked bombers and troopships. I didn’t even have Doc: Stealth, so the ships I could make weren’t very strong, but after some time, and under not much pressure from the opposing team, I managed to gather some attacking capability, and tried to see if there was somewhere to send these ships across the river.

That proved to be difficult still, with the Red Horde’s massive fleet sitting in space somewhere in the river waiting to intercept. We couldn’t even manage to get cloaked eyes on that fleet somehow - despite having 80% cloaks and 150 scan range, as they kept taking Elric’s scouts out. A wormhole was our best chance, and after Elric system scanned 5/2/2 and identified the position of their scouts, I thought I could possibly position a cloaked wormhole ship produced in that system somewhere that might not arouse suspicion. Then I (foolishly again…) went against Elric’s advice to not kill one of the scouts sitting at the sun of 5/2/2 - which probably alerted them to the fact that I was trying something, and my cloaked wormhole ship was duly taken out soon after.

.. to be continued ..

__________________
Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue

This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 09.01.2015 18:42.

09.01.2015 14:44 tingling is offline Send an Email to tingling Search for Posts by tingling Add tingling to your Buddy List
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Wins even when not in your Galaxy


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Things starting to turn around

A lucky break then came (as per Sailor Moon’s post-game admission), when The Presence, who was the only player with system scans on their team, became preoccupied with real-life commitments and the holiday season, and I killed a scout at the 5/1/2 sun as a distraction while sending a second cloaked wormhole ship built at 5/2/2 to a more isolated location to set up the wormhole. A bunch of other ships were set up around 5/1/2 - mostly the remnants of my reckless manoeuver earlier, to try and act as fodder and buy time for my wormhole ship. Perhaps they'd guess that after failing at 5/2/2, I’d try at 5/1/2 this time.

Around this time, Green Lantern sent a fleet of her own bombers alone to 5/1/2 (after having a fleet wiped out by Galactus and the others when she tried to hit Elric’s system in the river at 3/0/4 earlier). PD5 on my planet at 5/1/2 could only resist her bombers for a few turns to buy time, but they were never expected to stop a full invasion - nor were they expected to. I thought my troops on the planet could buy even more time though, but I was mistakened as Captain Cold had sent troops to back her up and they took my planet right after my PD were wiped out. But the time that the PD had bought us was invaluable, as it allowed the wormhole at 5/2/2 to open, so it didn’t matter that they conquered 5/1/2 anyway. What mattered more in the wider scale of things was that we had a wormhole close to their territory linked to our wormhole hub. So through the wormhole, Galactus led The Thing and the others to intercept Green Lantern’s fleet which was heading for 5/2/2, and put an end to the slight menace.

Initialising Operation Mayhem and Operation Blind Sided

In the meantime, I had assembled a cloaked fleet and warped it through the wormhole to start moving towards their systems and do some damage. Coincidentally, Elric had also moved a fleet into enemy territory (which I wasn’t even aware of earlier :p), and had been looking for some easy targets. He was travelling in excess of 100 speeds, while I was only travelling around the 85 speed mark. So we decided it was probably best to attack on different fronts, with his fleet making the journey all the way - without the help of wormholes I might add - to the right flank (which is actually where my home systems were), while my fleet would attack their left flank closer to where I had set up the wormhole.

Galactus had initially named Elric’s fleet Operation Blind Sided, but Elric had preferred to be called Operation Mayhem instead, so I made my generals pick up the ominous sounding name instead. Operation Mayhem (Elric’s fleet) identified The Flash as a potential target to be hit by multiple quick strikes, and after considering unleashing our secret weapon in their team which erm.. I may have consciously planted when setting up teams - which was that of someone who would cause a few notches on the Richter scale - I thought I’d try my luck and poke at Green Lantern - having noticed a familiar obsession with cruiser bombers and 20-troop destroyers. We timed it so that I would attack first, and draw enemy fleets towards me hopefully, while Elric could cause more damage on the other flank. I had Galactus’s fleet nearby, and was counting on retreating towards it should I get chased around, but the general idea was to hit them fast and hard, and hopefully faster and harder than they could hit us - believing that the interlude in between the last big battles had allowed them to build up sufficient attacking capabilities.

To my somewhat surprise, the Red Team started sending their fleet in the river (which we dubbed the Red Horde) towards Galactus’s fleet (aptly named Big Daddy), which had come closer to backing up my Blind Sided fleet in their territory. That meant we could keep the battlegrounds on their turf, which worked in our favour we thought. After taking a couple of Green Lantern’s planets and realising that she was beefing up her defences, and worried that cruiser fleets were around the corner (since Operation Blind Sided had very little firepower to even go against a couple of Green Lantern’s high tech cruisers), I targeted The Riddler’s HQ system instead, with my fleet probably just about able to breach his defences. Some pilots were fried, but overall Operation Blind Sided did relatively well in taking all but one of The Riddler’s planets in his HQ system, before thinking that it was unsafe to stay in sight at the system too long, so I kept Blind Sided moving on to the next system.

Reestablishing the second wormhole

We lost our first wormhole when the Red Horde combined to take out 5/2/2 - with my frantic attempt to boost it with troopships via the WH still not managing to stop them, despite shipping 400+ troops to the planet. It bought precious time for the rest of the operations though - as the Red Horde spent considerable time to close down the WH. But it mattered little, as we had snuck several cloaked WH ships to their territory with Blind Sided by then, and started opening WH’s in their territory (eventually deciding to build near Riddler’s HQ after having an initial location military scanned by the opposing team). I had conquered 4 planets at Riddler’s HQ and were on my way to keeping them well-fortified with as many turrets and shields as I could build, so it proved to be a better fortress than my earlier conquered planets.

Meanwhile, I had new doc: invisibility frigates (albeit not singularity drive nor warp shield enabled) coming out from my shipyards, and with only 2 turns to the wormhole hub via periphery wormholes, I quickly assembled reinforcement fleets to bolster Operation Blind Sided. But having noticed that the Red Horde stood between our new wormhole in their territory and the original Operation Blind Sided, I decided to send the reinforcement fleets (which I privately called Operation Bright Idea) to a second target - The Riddler’s planets on the frontline near the river - which were again, just about enough for my second fleet to breach through. So while Blind Sided proceeded towards the rear and hit Green Lantern’s other systems - including one shipyard which was starting to build Battleships (and destroying the Battleship in orbit which only had purely bombing power), Bright Idea tried to stretch their attention with the new front - all the while with Elric keeping The Flash and Aquaman busy on the other flank of their systems.

A game of cat and mouse

Then I noticed a Sailor Moon fleet of frigates travelling towards Blind Sided. I was stuck in the corner, and was shocked to measure his fleet speed to be well over 100. The good thing was that Elric’s scouts had picked it up while the enemy fleet was still a considerable distance away. But in order to gain more space for manoeuvers, I had to leave the corner system of Green Lantern I was targeting. I could not run, so I could only try and hide. Big Daddy became an unfeasible prospect, as the Red Horde started to close in on it, and a run back towards Big Daddy could potentially set me on a path to be intercepted by Sailor Moon’s quick frigate fleet. So I tried running towards the other flank, with a contingency plan to store up enough research points to get Doc: Lightweight if the situation required it. I would go to 110 speed, and be able to outrun Sailor Moon should the need arise.

A couple of one-ship fleets were detached from Blind Sided and sent to nearby systems to throw off the scent (which apparently annoyed Sailor Moon too), as I moved Blind Sided towards Captain Cold - hoping that perhaps his commitment of troops forward to their fleet had left him less well-defended. We had identified him as the Red Team’s banker as well, and I believed that with all the corvettes they had churned out earlier in the game, and keeping afloat, upkeep should have been an issue for them. Thankfully, Sailor Moon gave up his chase of Blind Sided, as he moved to join the Red Horde to confront Big Daddy, liberating Blind Sided to choose targets, and even gradually heal itself as I settled to take Bio-Armor instead.

.. to be continued ..

__________________
Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue

This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 14.01.2015 10:33.

09.01.2015 14:45 tingling is offline Send an Email to tingling Search for Posts by tingling Add tingling to your Buddy List
tingling Player-Rank: 4 tingling is a male
Wins even when not in your Galaxy


Registration Date: 17.11.2010
Posts: 4,210

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The threat of the Red Horde

Elsewhere, Big Daddy had earlier tried to set up a trap with my Command Centers on one of the systems I took from Green Lantern - but the Red Horde didn’t bite, so Big Daddy retreated to Riddler’s original HQ instead - where I had prepped even more Command Centers. We were hoping to dupe them into thinking we were repairing the fleet at a nearby shipyard away from the Command Centers - about 8 in total that we could get ready by the time the Red Horde arrive, but again, they didn’t bite. Instead, they attacked the shipyard planet, and not Big Daddy - foiling our efforts to draw them onto the Command Center-packed planet. Luckily, that allowed my PD5 to destroy half of Green Lantern’s bombers which she had split out from their main fleet to attack my planet, as Green Lantern led the other half to try and attack a second planet.

Having noticed that Green Lantern was down to 50k bombing power only, and my PD in the region of 270k HP, we figured we had some time for Big Daddy to get some repairs. After some time, we thought that perhaps we could try attacking their fleet that was still sitting in orbit over my planet and trying to break my PD, so Galactus thought that I could build some Command Centers before the bombers broke through. Some miscommunication happened, as this was a last-minute plan formulated by Galactus, and he led Big Daddy to challenge the Red Horde before I had built any Command Centers. That left Big Daddy with a bruised eye as any Big Daddy would willingly take to protect their family. We suffered a heavy defeat, as the Red Horde had plenty of light firepower to destroy all of Xavier’s 700+ corvettes and the few uncloaked frigates of yesteryears I had left with Big Daddy, as well as most of The Thing’s destroyers, while we had little light fp - with most of it going down the drain when our vettes and frigs went down like flies, so their heavy fp frigs easily won the battle. This left us about 3 million points behind the other team, and while some believed that this was the end of it for us, I thought that our superior attacking capability should see us through to easily make up the gap, and the galaxy was hugely in our favour, having ravaged quite a large portion of their systems.

Furthermore, fortunately for us, the Red Horde only had Green Lantern who insisted on building bombers, whose cruisers were quickly wiped out by Big Daddy’s heavy fp in the big battle, leaving whatever was left of the Red Horde with only air power and no bombing power - and even luckier for us still, no one to steer the fleet as Green Lantern’s fleet was totally wiped out and all the other fleets were following her while their respective emperors were away for the festive season. Sailor Moon pulled his fleet back to repair at The Riddler’s sole remaining planet at the system, while the rest of the Red Horde stood over my planet which still had considerable PD to chip at them bit by bit, What was left of Big Daddy (essentially only Galactus’s ships) retreated to the sanctuary of the 9 CC’s planet on Riddler’s former HQ and repaired himself.

Continuing to cause mayhem

Meanwhile, Operation Mayhem had successfully taken over 30 or even 40 planets on the other flank, and was leading Aquaman and The Flash on a wild goose chase to retake their torn-down planets, with the other team even resorting to bio-bombs to retake their own planets - even allowing it to be dropped to 0 population. Elric clearly enjoyed his assault and the menace he was causing on their flank, and after realising that he actually had a chance to keep some of the planets he conquered (which was not what he had initially imagined), he started sending wormholes into the area as well.

Operation Blind Sided, on the other hand, now free from the threat of Sailor Moon’s quick frigate fleet, was poking around Captain Cold’s territory for potential planets to strike. We had already known that it was impossible thinking of hitting Ra’s al Ghul - which we correctly deduced as someone who would be well-PDed up - but to my disappointment, planet and energy grid scans revealed that Captain Cold also had considerable PD up, backed by a strong HSE grid with transmitters at his HQ protected by Green Lantern’s cruiser fleet in orbit. That was a definite no-go for Blind Sided, I decided to let my frigates roam towards The Presence’s planets instead in the center of their territory, using the travelling time to heal up having gotten Bio-Armor earlier. Bio-Armor also proved to be a valuable choice as our troops were stronger, and PD which we were heavily relying on to keep the planets we took, also received a much-needed boost from our initial -20% penalty.

As I proceeded towards The Presence, Bright Idea eventually managed to meet up with Blind Sided at the center, and a combined bombing power of >300k and troops at almost half a thousand swept through some of Presence’s planets, with little retaliation as their emperor was mostly away for the holidays too. We even managed to take out most of The Presence’s HQ system next, centrally located and by the river, which was ideal as my fleet could now have several options for manoeuver - either into the river and back towards my own home systems, or towards the right flank where Operation Mayhem was still busy toying with Aquaman, The Flash, and Sailor Moon. Elric was also close to setting up a WH at that flank, and the idea was that even if Sailor Moon’s fast frigates chased me (which he did eventually), I could run towards the WH that Elric set up, and warp back towards the WH hub and then back in front of Green Lantern’s core planets, and causing further havoc where possible. Blind Sided + Bright Idea was also sufficiently boosted with heavy fp by that point that I was confident of going at Green Lantern’s shipyards for a longer period instead of having to avoid cruiser interceptors in the first attack.

The Red Horde is defeated

However, all the planning didn’t need to come to be in the end, as the flagship-less Red Horde, with no bombing power, endured 5 turns of bombing over my planet which eventually managed to build a couple of CC’s, and seeing Green Lantern send a 50k bombing fleet to the planet, we knew they were staying for a while still. Galactus and the rest had also beefed up Big Daddy with a second fleet (known as Big Momma), and the two combined fleets, backed by 60% firepower boosts from my CCs, finally saw an end to the Red Horde and the siege over my planet. Shortly after this point, with most of their players still not back from holidays, and still Boxing Day in real life, the Red Horde’s captain requested that the galaxy be paused. After I initially rejected their suggestion to unpause only after the new year, which was about another half a week away, a majority of the Red Team players eventually turned in their votes and decided to concede the game.

So the galaxy was finally won by us, with a further Aquaman fleet slamming itself into Blind Sided which had joined Operation Mayhem on the other flank as one of the last battles to round off a rather eventful galaxy.

The End

__________________
Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue

This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 14.01.2015 10:34.

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Confused Player-Rank: 3 Confused is a male
Rules with an Iron Pinky


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Posts: 1,291
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Confused
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The Plan : i wrote up a detailed and thought-out plan for the initial stages of the game. As was proven by our 2 fleet wins, and ting's account of those, that part of the plan went off without a hitch - their moves had been planned for even before the game had started. From our team's forum :

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Okies this is my take on how we should go about this. Obviously im not all-knowing and/or infallible, so any improvements and remarks are welcome, but its better to have a plan than everyone just going at it blindly.

The Tactical Plan

Colonize fast, grow planets and research.

Bard, Sr_B and Aldin should go for g-drive+beam-laser+nuke-drive fighters (yes, all 3 building nothing but fighters) and start rolling those out asap. Dyce will first focus on getting the outposts, defending them, and populating the river with scouts. ALL VANGUARDS SHOULD HAVE 13% SPEED BONUS, AND ALL SHOULD GET MOBILITY DOCTRINE. This makes sure that all ships are same speed and anyone can drive the interception fleet. Whatever we have in terms of fighters should be at Dyce's outposts by turn 100, so we can intercept any attempts to steal his planets. Dyce can eventually jump into the fleet building effort too. Obviously, as tech grows, AM-drive frigates should be built instead of the 'vettes, but as we proved last round, big fleet that constantly keeps growing is the best defense AND the best bet to make their lives very very hard Smile

On the subject of the outposts, i think 2 wormholes should suffice, so get 2 systems, with 2 and 3 planets respectively, that are close together so we can put the wormholes practically on top of each other.

Raz, your main focus early is to get trade doctrine ASAP, that means, with home planet at 60 research and 35 pop, you should have it before turn 10. No kidding. This will allow us to buy metal cheap with all cash leftovers we have and this will in turn aid the colonization effort. Early on you can use home system for research and get some more research done. After a while however you should turn your home system into troop central, by turning 2 planets into troop producers and 3 planets into ship builders that only build transports. This should definitely be sufficient to provide hundreds of troops to the invasion fleet (the heavies, thus)

Radiance and Skinny, you both are the main focus of our game. We're going to get you a shitload of planets, and you guys are going to race to those heavies like theres no tomorrow Smile If we can get the real power-heavies out the door before the other team, and with 2 big players building them, we should definitely win if the fighter fleet hasnt stomped them into submission yet Smile Im pretty sure i dont need to tell you how to play, but make sure your fleets are same speed so you can both drive Smile

Planned number of planets per player

Aldin, Sr_B and Bard : 24 (this should be sufficient, use 18 for research and the 6 in home system for fleet production, should do the trick).
Dyce : 24 in home zone + 5 outposts
Raz : 36 (home + 12 research + 18 banker planets)
Confused : 42 (30 resourcing planets + 12 research)
Radiance and Skinny : 48 (yes, you read that right, we're going all the way on the heavies Tongue )

System Assignment

These are your assigned systems, which means you'll send your starting colony ships into these systems (make sure you have them all covered), this way we'll have full exploration of all home systems very early, which means i can plan which planets i'll grab for resourcing, making sure colonization is smooth. Those who lose planets due to resourcing will be compensated in systems assigned to me, dont worry about it, we'll make it work, but for now, send starting colony ships here and any you build too Smile

Aldin : 621, 622*, 623, 722
Sr_B : 600, 610*, 620, 611
Bard : 604, 614*, 624, 613
Dyce : 601, 602*, 603, 612
Raz : 801, 802, 803, 811, 812*, 813, 822
Confused : 701, 702, 703, 711, 712*, 713
Radiance : 704, 714*, 724, 723, 804, 814, 824, 823
Skinny : 700, 710*, 720, 721, 800, 810, 820, 821

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09.01.2015 16:29 Confused is offline Send an Email to Confused Search for Posts by Confused Add Confused to your Buddy List
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After the 2nd fleet victory a new plan was forwarded :

- sailor moon and the riddler, who had provided he backbone for both fleet victories but had, due to high production, been lagging in research, would slow ship production and catch up in research.

- aquaman and the presence, our 2 most technologically advanced vanguards, would start producing 100+ speed frigates to hunt down any incursing stealth fleets.

- the flash and green lantern would take their high-tech heavies and start clearing the other team's outposts from the river, starting with the ones closest to our frontline and then moving forward. Leftovers from the big fleet that won the 2nd victory would join them so as to make a big ball of badness.


The tactical plan was to move forward slowly but inexorably and without remorse. Sadly enough, due to reasons mentioned earlier, the latter part of the plan never materialized, and suddenly we found ourselves with both their main fleet and stealth invaders in the back of our main fleet. From there on out it spiralled out of control as motivation, planning and cohesion went out the window.

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We lost by a few turns. We did not take your two nearby river planets fast enuf. We got one and only missed the other by about 4-5 ticks. You managed to get a wormhole and invaded in force, quickly taking dozens of our planets. It was all over then, really--we plugged the leak by taking that river system, but by then, you had several fleets in our hair and many options for new wormholes.

Confused urged us to get your two planets on our doorstep and we just did not give that quite enuf priority. If we had been just a tad faster, you would have had no chance against us.
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Puts Shields on Colony Ships


Registration Date: 13.10.2012
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You can see in the replay that Dyce (The Presence) scanned your wormhole in turn 204 and moved a shuttle just 3 units outside cloaking range for allies to see but they couldn't , since the system scans don't reveal anything for allies and you have to put it on paper to actually see when allies can see anything.
I had a fleet 2 turns away and could have killed that wh ship before it built the wormhole.
The "make screenshot" and manually move ships on top of cloaked ships is a circus.
Also it looks like Dyce did scan more stuff around turn 244 but probably he was just fed up with it.

Anyway, I had a discussion with Raf in the Psilon galaxy and he insists that the light doctrine is balanced against the heavy.
Perhaps he is right but if you look at this replay you will see my point. We had a tremendous amount of firepower above you while your team built pretty much kitchen sink destroyers that got obliterated every time against 2 or 3 light fleets.
The last fight you actually managed to kill our fleets because I retreated and our fleets sustained heavy casualties with 5 turns over a PD planet and 2 command centers.

The real problem does not stand because I think the light fleet is overpowered over the heavy. The real problem is the light doctrine combined with cloaking is extreme overpowered.
I tried to stand by my point in the Psilon galaxy when mizzy brought a 700 k pure bombing cloaked fleet to cripple my empire by taking all my production planets in one hit, but my concerns were dismissed and I was advised to build cruisers which I consider are utterly useless.
I don't think I am very coherent but whatever, it's late, I had a bad day and you understand what you want.

Things are like this.
Cloaking is cheap, light doctrine is very cheap.
Light doctrine against heavy is a bit overpowered on the light side in my opinion because once you get to infiltrators and warp shields, frigates main damage will hit heavy hulls while the heavy ships will hit at the heavy hulls in the enemy fleet and then the light hulls.
You have no chance to over damage the light hulls with heavy weapons in a fight if you build cruisers/destroyers while a pure anti-heavy frigate fleet can overpower a heavy fleet AND maintain by far a superior speed.
There is no competitive anti-light weapon for end-game to match infiltrator damage.
Things change only if you get to juggernaut, titan. Battleships obliterate light fleets.

And the point is...
- light fleet is very fast, very powerful to fight against, too cheap research wise, combined with CLOAKING ... devastating, it can never be caught.
- heavy fleet needs serious specialization to fight a light fleet (juggernaut, titan), when faced against cloaking just has no chance. Scans are expensive, techs to get system scans are VERY expensive compared to getting cloaking, hyperspace scanners are just useless to track any cloaked fleet, 20 scan range to see cloaked ships... Also, to defend against a cloaked bomber fleet you need insane amount of PD levels and hyperspace grid.

Most games I played cloaks had serious drawbacks, for example in eve online cloaked ships are paper thin, only in huge numbers they can do anything, in star trek online cloaking a ship dropped it's shields and if it got shot... well... boom Big Grin .

But main point is we didn't lost because Dyce went inactive or because your heavy fleet roamed around our systems. We lost because it was just impossible to track cloaked ships or defend against them, you didn't even bother building firepower ships, you just had bombers and troop transports.
Also regardless if Dyce scanned your cloaked ships or not, we couldn't see them anyway, just him, while you could roam about in 120 speed cloaked frigates with 500k bombing power and nothing could catch you ever.

Now to put it on paper. How is a heavy fleet balanced against a light invisible fleet that can't be caught and forces an enemy into maximum turtle mode?

Solution? Simple, have cloaking tech cost adjusted (won't do much sadly, just delay) or add a tremendous weight on the module to drop it's speed considerably bringing it close to a heavy fleet or have the cloaking module take different space on different hulls, 30 shuttle, 50 corvette, 70-100 frigate or something like that (would probably require coding Big Grin )
14.01.2015 06:51 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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Also if you still don't believe me that light doctrine is a bit powerful over the heavy then ask Radiance how interesting I adjusted the concept of light fleets into my new tactics in the Deterministic galaxy Tongue

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by aldin: 14.01.2015 07:00.

14.01.2015 06:52 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
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in general Aldin I think you are right. I love cloaked fleets and if I take stealth then all I build are cloaked ships. I think that a fleet that has to be tracked with system scans is much more dangerous then one with heavy shields.

but I do think that the counter is to go down the other side of the docs chart and build ships that have huge numbers of hit points. the deciding factor then is whose going to determine were you fight. and that is determined by who can take planets faster. in the end you must defend your planets with your fighter ships and thus commit them to battle. for me battle is about taking or keeping planets. (Please don't take this as a challenge in deterministic galaxy, lets leave that one out of this discussion, http://cosmicsupremacy.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif ).

Speed is an incredible advantage to allow you to pick the time and place of battle. So how else do you get a faster lighter fleet to attack a heavier more powerful fleet? with a threat to their planets.
BTW I was going around at 149-157 speeds. I was not going to doing any battle unless I wanted to. and after awhile all of troops ships for Flash were just juicy targets with no place to go.
When your whole team decided to send ships in to crush my incursion they were all going the wrong direction. you needed to march on across the galaxy and destroy my ship building planets which were all of them. Wink

MY goal was to draw away from the main battlefront more then I could contribute and that only happened after 25-30 turns of taking planets and killing individual or small groups of ships, and also making raising troops for Flash so expensive that he couldn't man the ships he was building in his centralized ship building factories. As I have said before, we were needing to take the battle to you because we were down on player. if you had just marched in and taken planets from us faster then we could take them from you the game would have turned out much different. but with out bombers it would have been the same outcome.

So to stop rambling and repeat my agreement that light ships are equal to heavies but add that you need to use them the best way possible in order to beat an opponent with jug, dread, and titan and that is to force battle on you own terms.

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14.01.2015 08:41 pommiebastard is offline Send an Email to pommiebastard Search for Posts by pommiebastard Add pommiebastard to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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I think you and Spider were a bit paranoid by too many defeats.
My scan range was 13 it was obvious we didn't saw anything and moved ships randomly in hopes you attack us or we catch you on planets. Even when Spider invaded Dyce, he killed lots of ships on the planets while they just kept piling up, obvious inactive.
And please look at the replay, nobody actually sent a big contingent to intercept you or spider, they were just new built ships.

Regardless, the point is heavy doctrine against cloaked light doctrine.
You said heavy doctrine can be better on offensive against light cloaked doctrine? How exactly when they have to defend everything and research huge more to defend?
And since heavy doctrine won't ever see anything on attack without scans, even if they see the enemy, how will they catch it?

Speed is the only advantage in battle since you can decide to fight now or tomorrow, having three times the speed of heavies and invisibility does sound fair to me, I have to admit Tongue
14.01.2015 09:28 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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You said you're troop defense in Deterministic right?

A cloaked doctrine can come with several bio-bomber/some bombers/fighters and level ALL your planets in under 40 turns depending on your PD level.
Pretty much what you did to us in the Nightmare Galaxy.

The only thing you can do is ...
A. Try to build PD's and turrets.
B. Try to invade the enemy but that won't stop him.
C. Try to catch him on your planets if you're lucky, split fleet and get owned.
D. Watch and get popcorn since he'd have around 120 speed and well...

I must add that a light fleet builder with cloaks had extra research to spend compared to a heavy builder and he got PD7 and hyperspace energy and if you go on offensive you'll chew hard on each planet, one by one, more harder to get.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by aldin: 14.01.2015 09:43.

14.01.2015 09:40 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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Anyway, I'm not going to change the world. This is that. Chew on that Wink

I was preparing a cloaked bio-bomber fleet to zero Spider in several turns and you . It would have been fun.
But hey! There is always a next time LOL

P.S. Just watched "that" part of replay. Zero defenses mister Evil

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by aldin: 14.01.2015 09:54.

14.01.2015 09:49 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
raf7 Player-Rank: 4
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quote:
Originally posted by aldin
Anyway, I had a discussion with Raf in the Psilon galaxy and he insists that the light doctrine is balanced against the heavy.


Nope, there was no discussion, and I never insisted on anything. I simply presented my view, which is supported by many games playing both types of fleets.

The insistence is on your side. And, from what I see, comes from something that you described as your style of playing: aggressive destruction of all opposing fleets. That is the typical style of playing of people that fear being attacked, and try to control everything around them to choke any opposition. Cloak is indeed a "threat" to that style of playing.

Your fleet in the Psilon galaxy was, by your own words, a mess. A capable heavy fleet looks very different from that.

The thing about fleet balance is that there are 3 different dimensions for quality: strength, speed and cloak. Each appeals to a different approach to the game, being differently fit for offensive and defensive play. When players of similar level match each other, they may pick which dimension they prefer, but cannot have them all. And this is pure balance.

..

After Radiance's and aldin's latest posts, and as a neutral observer to this thread, I would also like to note something...

When players on the losing side talk too much about what might have happened, should have happened and whatnot, it seems that they are trying to steal credit from those who have won.

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14.01.2015 18:00 raf7 is offline Send an Email to raf7 Search for Posts by raf7 Add raf7 to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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My fleet in Psilon galaxy was half light because it was impossible to catch a cloaked bomber fleet with a heavy fleet and I simply tried to survive by being able to kill those bombers and stop hugging my planets for eternity.
My comment about it being a "mess" was because it was partly an anti-bomber fleet but you were a bit busy building your dream fleet and being shady sarcastic instead of reading what I say.

Obviously this goes nowhere, try looking up what balanced means.
"A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces. "


And again.
- Light doctrine is cheaper tech-wise, invisible, they afford more PD levels and can fight a heavy doctrine toe to toe properly fit.
- Heavy doctrine is slow, can't catch any light fleet, scans are expensive tech and production wise, against cloaked ships they need to massive invest in defenses since they can't catch lights anyway.

My style of play is survival. I play many different games and I've been around tactical games enough to know when me as a solo empire can survive, fight back or forced to defend. I never play aggressive or try to choke any opposition. I just pointed out that light cloaked doctrine forces opposition lot on the defensive side and the last game was a solid proof of that. Spider said I had a decent defense and a "problematic" fleet from our team with only 24 planets.

While I do appreciate your insight, try countering my arguments instead of trying to discredit me . I had enough silver tongue comments in my life to not get intimidated.

I apologize if tingling's team thinks I am trying to "steal" anything and I already said you guys had an outstanding performance with what you had (several players quite semi-active if I saw right).
Also my comment about the wormhole destruction was more of a funny moment than a "steal" since it was my mistake I didn't research System Scans and did PD's instead Shocked
The blame and failure is personal in my case but that scout there near the wormhole was epic failure not to be noted.
14.01.2015 22:56 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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I've put my point on the table, if people think it's ok, then it's ok.
I really don't care that much to "aggressive choke opposition". It's only a game and I'll use what it's in it as long as I'm around.

Also I think I had a bug maybe? I bio-bombed a planet and it had shields and PD's and bio-bombs killed stuff on planet but I had no bombers. Can't find the logs however, maybe lack of sleep Shocked
14.01.2015 23:10 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
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aldin,

fyi, I have no intention of countering any of your opinions. You can keep them and use them in your strategy. From your words, you are fully sure that you are right, and have discovered the ultimate advantage. So, why would you need anything from me?

It is now twice that you address me indirectly in a public post, as someone who is wrong where you are right. This second time you even refered to me as being insistent. To that, I answer as I did, because I appreciate being respected instead of vulgarized in someone's small talk.

Edit: Know that I do appreciate some of the things that you are bringing in, including your ability to look at yourself. However, for a player who is yet to experience many of the important aspects of this game, you do seem to be too full of yourself in your opinions, and I tend to have my doors closed to that kind of attitude.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by raf7: 15.01.2015 00:16.

14.01.2015 23:29 raf7 is offline Send an Email to raf7 Search for Posts by raf7 Add raf7 to your Buddy List
aldin Player-Rank: 2
Puts Shields on Colony Ships


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I work as a programmer in developing games and web games. Fine tuning, re-balance and implementing of new features . I have been doing that for the last 13 years.

Related to my CS experience, I signed up around 2012 and gave up since the game was quite "unbalanced".
In spare time I like to experience different games and I play quite a few just for observation and maybe ideas.
I found CS interesting only because of the "half damage if enemy has more firepower than your hull". Interesting concept, never seen it, can't adopt it, wouldn't stick to public Evil
I try not to get involved or suggest changes in free games . Developers usually moved on long ago from them. But funny thing is when you suggest something in a paid game and sticks to the community. Disaster follows Cool

"Vulgarized?", "small talk?" I tend to avoid getting involved in too much talks over games, not sure when that changed, perhaps when you "aggressively diplomatically insulted me" with every post back since the Psilon galaxy. Small drops of subtle poison.
I have news for you, that is just as aggressive and control obsessive that you accused me for in how I want to play the game. As for the attitude, I think it applies also. You just have more patience and chose words more carefully, diplomacy was never my style.
Same sides of a magnet never stick.
I also recall when you told me light doctrine and heavy are balanced because you were the one that did it. But you told it on such tone that sounded like ... "I am GOD and you're a stupid newbie that knows nothing".


But let's leave the insults aside and just play the game.
I'll be silent from now on, in my corner , trying to mend the wounds between me Radiance and Raz since I think I've been quite a "bastards" as she would describe it.
16.01.2015 03:03 aldin is offline Send an Email to aldin Search for Posts by aldin Add aldin to your Buddy List
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A bastard is a war game player who played better than you did and ate your troops or ships or planets or whatever.

Aldin is an AWESOME bastard, imo. I have much enjoyed playing with and against him because he is different and has intriguing things to teach me.
16.01.2015 06:42 Radiance is offline Send an Email to Radiance Search for Posts by Radiance Add Radiance to your Buddy List
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Message sent by me during the Psilon Galaxy (exact words):

"As far as I know, light and heavy ships and their respective doctrines and firepower are well balanced (I actually balanced that myself when I already had a very good level of experience with CS).

In previous games, I have massively outgunned light fleets with heavies (even with my fleets flying at speeds around 65-70). As I tried to hint you at the Forums, some heavy ship designs are better than others. Some hints:
» Cruisers are very good
» Not using multiple shields is usually a mistake
» Proton Lasers are actually superb, but on a galaxy with very fast research pace their power is not as evident (because Infiltrators are better, but usually only available in late game)"

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