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azazel Player-Rank: 2 azazel is a male
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Hi,

having used the governor and admiral rule system extensively (I went on vacation for a week and wanted my empire to stay alive in the meantime - and it worked quite well, when I left I'd been score #7 or 8, when I returned I was score #1 ;-), I'd like to make a few suggestions:
  1. it would be extremely helpful to either have a not facility or an else branch to conditional rules. For example, there is a condition currently no production. Sometimes I want to do stuff if there is any production going on and other stuff if there isn't. Right now I help myself with using the currently no production condition and a stop processing directive. It's awkward and not very intuitive, though.
  2. With the current system, I was not able to figure out a good way to create mixed fleets automatically. Currently, there is only one condition one can use for that purpose number of ship-design. It would be cool if one could set for this condition several variants:
    in the galaxy,
    in the same solar system as the planet the governor is running on,
    in orbit around the planet the governor is running on.
    Besides, it would be very nice if one could say in some way: build ships and rotate between these n designs (you could select multiple designs like you can select multiple planets/suns).

  3. The intercept hostile ships within n units rule currently works with an absolute position. Ie., if I create an admiral with this rule and assign it to two ships, both of them will intercept in the same sphere. Now, sometimes this is exactly what I want. But other times - quite frequently, actually - I want to assign this admiral to all new ships produced on all planets in all my systems. In those cases, I'd like to have the rule work with a relative position, ie., the center of the sphere would always be where the ship was when the admiral was assigned to it. It would be nice if one could switch between absolute and relative mode via right-click. To make this more clear: right now if I have the admiral auto-assigned to all new ships (of a certain design) they will start to move from all planets to the one system where I first defined the admiral's intercept directive. What I'd want for them is to stay where they are and intercept within a sphere of n radius around that position.
  4. My fourth suggestion is rather far-fetched and interesting probably only to a few users, but I'd still like to make it: it would be cool if one could copy a governor or admiral into the clipboard, then paste the text into ones favorite text-editor (Textpad, Ultraedit, Editplus, Emacs whatever), edit it there as text, copy the edited text and paste it back. I'm aware that this is quite a bit of work as it involves text parsing and validation. Why do I propose this? Well, I think one of the most interesting and impressive features of SpaceCiv is that it can be automated so well - which helps people like me who just cannot play every turn because they lead a busy business live ;-) Besides, it's also interesting and a challenge in itself to try and create effective governor and admiral systems. Now it would be so much quicker for someone with a programming background and probably for some other folk, too, to edit the rules in a texteditor. Besides, I'd imagine that within a few days after the release of such a feature, users would come up with custom syntax-coloring and auto-completion files for the most popular editors. It would be interesting how many other people would like to use such a feature if it was there.

Just my 5c,

Azazel

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by azazel: 21.07.2007 17:14.

21.07.2007 16:49 azazel is offline Send an Email to azazel Search for Posts by azazel Add azazel to your Buddy List
quickstrike Player-Rank: 2 quickstrike is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by azazel
What I'd want for them is to stay where they are and intercept within a sphere of n radius around that position.


Couldn't agree with you more on that. What is actually happening is not because of the "intercept" rule, but because it is the intentional design of the admirals. If a group of scattered ships are assigned a single attack/defense admiral, the admiral will try to group the ships together regardless of which rule it has.

http://www.cosmicsupremacy.com/forum/thr...311&postid=9235

My last post on this thread is the same thing you pointed out and for the exact same reason. I want a defender at each system to intercept (say scouts), but I would have to assign a defensive admiral to EACH defender at each system to prevent grouping. IMO, not worth the time.

EDIT: oh yea, btw erwin, How do you link to a specific post on the forum? like a # in html

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by quickstrike: 21.07.2007 20:04.

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Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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RE: Governor rule additions Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by quickstrike
EDIT: oh yea, btw erwin, How do you link to a specific post on the forum? like a # in html

Ever noticed the small little "post icon" left of the date/time of a specific post? You can actually click this, which will reload the page and put the focus on that specific post. You can use that URL to link to a specific post inside a thread.

I will comment on the actual suggestions later.
21.07.2007 21:08 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
azazel Player-Rank: 2 azazel is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by azazel
RE: Governor rule additions Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Ahhh - thanks for pointing me to that discussion, that was actually very valuable information.

In the light of this, I would agree with your suggestion in that thread: make the admiral's 'collecting' behavior optional.

Cheers,
Azazel
22.07.2007 15:03 azazel is offline Send an Email to azazel Search for Posts by azazel Add azazel to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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ad 1) I like the idea of the "else branch", since it can be used in a more general fashion. I will need to have a look how exactly I will implement this.

ad 2) I agree with the extensions to "number of ship-designs", because it will make it clearer what we mean by that, and it gives us more flexibility, and helps solving your particular problem.

ad 3) As you know by now the Assault and Defense admirals above all try to form one big ship-cluster of all ships that are assigned to it. We have already agreed to make this behavior an option.

One thing I do not understand though is that having single ships staying put and intercepting inside a given radius only makes sense if they attacked a single hostile ship. As soon as they would try to intercept a fleet, chances are that this would end up being a suicide mission. So probably it is best to add an option to the intercept rule, that allows you to specify to intercept single ships only?

ad 4) That sounds like a LOT of work, and I can't really see that a lot of people would use that. Apart from that I think I mentioned at another occasion that exporting/importing of governors will not be supported, because then those scripts are likely being shared among players. What I do want to offer instead is the ability to bring governor scripts across from one galaxy to another.
22.07.2007 22:26 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
Lost Cause Player-Rank: 2 Lost Cause is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]ad 3) As you know by now the Assault and Defense admirals above all try to form one big ship-cluster of all ships that are assigned to it. We have already agreed to make this behavior an option.




Yay!



I'd love a rule that allowed you to tell a small group of shuttles to only target single holstile ships.
It would make it easyer to send forth small squads of quick ships to take out an oponants scouts.

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22.07.2007 22:54 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
azazel Player-Rank: 2 azazel is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by azazel
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quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
ad 1) I like the idea of the "else branch", since it can be used in a more general fashion. I will need to have a look how exactly I will implement this.

It is the more general variant than "not". Presumably it's a bit more work, too :-)

quote:

ad 2) I agree with the extensions to "number of ship-designs", because it will make it clearer what we mean by that, and it gives us more flexibility, and helps solving your particular problem.

Yep. Besides, I've thought a bit about the rotating ship designs issue. Another feature addition would help with that, too: change the directive for loading a named queue to allow specifying whether the queue should be repeated (either n times or indefinitely). That way one could set up a named queue with, say, 3 ship designs in it and have the governor repeatedly produce from that queue, depending on conditions built from the above suggestions. What do you think about that?

quote:

ad 3) [...]
One thing I do not understand though is that having single ships staying put and intercepting inside a given radius only makes sense if they attacked a single hostile ship. As soon as they would try to intercept a fleet, chances are that this would end up being a suicide mission. So probably it is best to add an option to the intercept rule, that allows you to specify to intercept single ships only?

Good point - I didn't think of that because I typically have small fleets in each system that I'd like to use like that.

quote:

ad 4) That sounds like a LOT of work, and I can't really see that a lot of people would use that.

Hehe - I kind of expected that answer. But I hope you'll understand that, being a programmer, I just had to try ;-)
quote:

Apart from that I think I mentioned at another occasion that exporting/importing of governors will not be supported, because then those scripts are likely being shared among players.

The sharing-problem exists even without the text-editor or import/export feature as people still can tell each other how they set up their rules. I don't think one can really prevent that. But there's also the question whether one should. If people want to share their 'trade secrets', why not let them? In the worst case, it's just another step of their own undoing, in the best case it helps the gamer's community as a whole via cross-fertilizing ideas. I do understand, though, that it's not worth investing any effort into actively supporting that.
quote:

What I do want to offer instead is the ability to bring governor scripts across from one galaxy to another.

Being able to re-use governor/admiral scripts from one galaxy to the other would be a great help - I've just discovered this starting my second galaxy.

Cheers,
Azazel

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by azazel: 23.07.2007 09:14.

23.07.2007 09:11 azazel is offline Send an Email to azazel Search for Posts by azazel Add azazel to your Buddy List
HeruFeanor Player-Rank: 1
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RE: Governor rule additions Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by azazel
1. it would be extremely helpful to either have a not facility or an else branch to conditional rules. For example, there is a condition currently no production. Sometimes I want to do stuff if there is any production going on and other stuff if there isn't. Right now I help myself with using the currently no production condition and a stop processing directive. It's awkward and not very intuitive, though.


I agree that an "else" would be INCREDIBLY useful. While a "not" would technically work, I get really tired of always having to create essentially the same condition a second time, but inverted (which you can do with many conditions, but not all).

quote:
Originally posted by azazel
2. With the current system, I was not able to figure out a good way to create mixed fleets automatically. Currently, there is only one condition one can use for that purpose number of ship-design. It would be cool if one could set for this condition several variants:
in the galaxy,
in the same solar system as the planet the governor is running on,
in orbit around the planet the governor is running on.
Besides, it would be very nice if one could say in some way: build ships and rotate between these n designs (you could select multiple designs like you can select multiple planets/suns).


The number of a given ship design in the galaxy can be handled by the named queues. If you hit the # button on the building queue window, it will allow you to specify a set total number of a ship to produce. I often use that to build enough scouts to place one on every star in the system. I can, say, specify that I want 50 scouts, and put that queue on three different planets, and rest assured that exactly 50 scouts will be produced total.

However, it might be nice to be able to specify that in the governor as well, and the other conditions would definitely be handy.

quote:
Originally posted by azazel
3. The intercept hostile ships within n units rule currently works with an absolute position. Ie., if I create an admiral with this rule and assign it to two ships, both of them will intercept in the same sphere. Now, sometimes this is exactly what I want. But other times - quite frequently, actually - I want to assign this admiral to all new ships produced on all planets in all my systems. In those cases, I'd like to have the rule work with a relative position, ie., the center of the sphere would always be where the ship was when the admiral was assigned to it. It would be nice if one could switch between absolute and relative mode via right-click. To make this more clear: right now if I have the admiral auto-assigned to all new ships (of a certain design) they will start to move from all planets to the one system where I first defined the admiral's intercept directive. What I'd want for them is to stay where they are and intercept within a sphere of n radius around that position.


My worry with this is that they would have to keep track of some sort of starting position. Otherwise, they'd intercept the ships, fight, and then be sitting out in some random spot in open space, with a new sphere based there.

So it seems to me they need a "guard this point" rule, in order to have their spheres actually specified properly, which is what they already have.

Unfortunately, I think the best solution to this is just to make more admirals. Myself, I usually have one defense admiral per system.

quote:
Originally posted by azazel
4. My fourth suggestion is rather far-fetched and interesting probably only to a few users, but I'd still like to make it: it would be cool if one could copy a governor or admiral into the clipboard, then paste the text into ones favorite text-editor (Textpad, Ultraedit, Editplus, Emacs whatever), edit it there as text, copy the edited text and paste it back. I'm aware that this is quite a bit of work as it involves text parsing and validation. Why do I propose this? Well, I think one of the most interesting and impressive features of SpaceCiv is that it can be automated so well - which helps people like me who just cannot play every turn because they lead a busy business live ;-) Besides, it's also interesting and a challenge in itself to try and create effective governor and admiral systems. Now it would be so much quicker for someone with a programming background and probably for some other folk, too, to edit the rules in a texteditor. Besides, I'd imagine that within a few days after the release of such a feature, users would come up with custom syntax-coloring and auto-completion files for the most popular editors. It would be interesting how many other people would like to use such a feature if it was there.


I'm with Erwin on not wanting to facilitate the direct exchange of scripts too much. Yes, it's true, people will trade script ideas whether we like it or not, and I don't think that's entirely a bad thing. What I want to avoid is the situation where you have a pre-packaged set of scripts you can install to run your empire, without having to read them or understand what they're doing or why they work. So long as people are exchanging scripts through less automated means, and have to enter them themselves at least once, then they have to have at least a basic understanding of what they're actually telling their governors and admirals to do.

Plus, as a programmer myself, I don't have any problem entering the scripts with a GUI. It's kind of frustrating, at times, dealing with the lack of certain standard elements of programming logic, but that's a problem with the basic, underlying language, not the GUI used to enter it. And some of the programming logic which could be added probably shouldn't be, partially because it would make things too complicated for non-programmers, and partially because it would potentially allow you to automate things TOO much.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by HeruFeanor: 23.07.2007 12:36.

23.07.2007 12:34 HeruFeanor is offline Send an Email to HeruFeanor Search for Posts by HeruFeanor Add HeruFeanor to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally by azazel
With the current system, I was not able to figure out a good way to create mixed fleets automatically. Currently, there is only one condition one can use for that purpose number of ship-design. It would be cool if one could set for this condition several variants:
in the galaxy,
in the same solar system as the planet the governor is running on,
in orbit around the planet the governor is running on.

Besides, it would be very nice if one could say in some way: build ships and rotate between these n designs (you could select multiple designs like you can select multiple planets/suns).


I know this is on the to do list. I was just wondering if we could expand on it a little. What I was woundering is if we could get the option for something like this:

If the # of (ship-type) is less/higher/= to # in fleet (name of fleet) build (ship-type)

This would allow a planet(s) to support a fleet with out the ships in another fleet being counted.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Halburn: 12.05.2008 14:21.

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partially already rasied

I agree it'd be good to attack individual scouts. although you could cheat by sending two ships in a fleet to trick it.

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