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War_Cross Player-Rank: 3 War_Cross is a male
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The retire button serves no purpose. If you join and don't want to play, then don't play. In fact, don't join in the first place. If you retire your HQ system remains but with no ownership which skews the game by allowing one lucky player having more juicy planets then the other players. I'm hoping Erwin can remove or disable this button in the future.
I've asked Erwin if he could disable the retire button for war-only galaxies. If he can't then the next best thing is to not have juicy planets but make the regular planets a little larger to compensate.
There is one player that I know of who will join and retire just to be a dick. Finding the juicy planets of a retired player is like playing chess with a couple of extra queens. Not fair and balanced.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 28.08.2018 19:36.

28.08.2018 13:44 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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RE: retire the retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
The retire button serves no purpose. If you join and don't want to play, then don't play. In fact, don't join in the first place. If you retire your HQ system remains but with no ownership which skews the game by allowing one lucky player having more juicy planets then the other players. I'm hoping Erwin can remove or disable this button in the future.
I've asked Erwin if he could disable the retire button for war-only galaxies. If he can't then the next best thing is to not have juicy planets but make the regular planets a little larger to compensate.
There is one player that I know of who will join and retire just to be a dick. Finding the juicy planets of a retired player is like playing chess with a couple of extra queens. Not fair and balanced.


Who is the player who does this. If you don't want to post his name here then please send it to me in a PM.

I have joined games with the full intent to play them, then real life got in the way the day before or within the first couple of turns of the game, so I retired. No harm no foul.

I'm slow sometimes...Maybe I'm the one you are talking about
29.08.2018 01:18 Sygor is offline Send an Email to Sygor Search for Posts by Sygor Add Sygor to your Buddy List
War_Cross Player-Rank: 3 War_Cross is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
RE: retire the retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

So your saying the retire button was still offered at turn 3 ? In the example you gave where something came up and you couldn't be online to play, the sportsman thing to do is not tell anyone that you won't be playing and don't announce that your removing your planet's Defense's there by giving the closer empires an unfair advantage, like some players have done in the past. You don't need a retire button. You should not be able to retire after the game starts for any reason. You just quit playing and quietly go away ...

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 29.08.2018 03:46.

29.08.2018 01:35 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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We are talking about the Retire "link" in the webinterface? In theory that can be removed pretty easily. However, is that really such a big issue?? War_Cross seems to be the only one that sees a problem with that.

Btw, I can only remove that "button" entirely, and not just for war only galaxies.
29.08.2018 23:06 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
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@Erwin, it is not a big issue!

Let us discuss it more before anything is done.
29.08.2018 23:10 Sygor is offline Send an Email to Sygor Search for Posts by Sygor Add Sygor to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
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quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [CS]
We are talking about the Retire "link" in the webinterface? In theory that can be removed pretty easily. However, is that really such a big issue?? War_Cross seems to be the only one that sees a problem with that.

Btw, I can only remove that "button" entirely, and not just for war only galaxies.


Thanks for the reply Erwin.

I just posted this recently and not many people reply anymore except Sygor. And I'm probably the only one here that never uses the retire button.

Before I present my argument to get rid of the retire button, I need some information to be sure my request is logical.

question #1 ... Is it true that the retire button disappears at the same time as the invite button ? And when does that happen ?

question #2 ... When players retire after the game starts, does it show in history that they had joined the game ? And is he counted in the final calculation for fame points ?

One problem with the retire button, is that the HQ system of the retired player remains in the galaxy. It may contain 3 or 4 juicy planets which gives an unfair advantage to empires close to that system. So they will find it, and colonize the juicy planets giving them twice as many juicy planets as everyone else. So the game is now skewed and unfair to the other players not as close to the retired players HQ.
It's kind of like playing a game of chess with someone, only they have a couple of extra queens. Or better still, playing poker where one guy at the table gets a couple of extra cards.

Now I know that Sygor and others have had good reasons, or real life problems before using the retire button. But the bigger percentage of players have used the retire button for much lesser reasons. Some of the reasons could include ( and probably have already happened ) are ...
(1) They joined a galaxy and then noticed another they prefer.
(2) They give their friend the location of the system to be colonized.
(3) They have a grudge against the person posting the galaxy and just want to be a pain.
(4) They are just flighty and join and quit on a whim.

The only reason I requested the removal of the retire button is just to take another small step toward a fair and equal start for every player with no advantages given to one player, even if only by luck.

This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 30.08.2018 02:23.

30.08.2018 00:41 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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Definitely not an issue in my opinion. Never has been an issue before.

Most certainly doesn't effect who wins the games.

Too many changes are being done in the name of "fair" play, when in reality that its effecting nothing.

Unless someone is making a second account to go get those planets, its not effecting anything. Even then, if they are forced to stay, you can just capture their hq and juicy planets with troop ships and a bomber.

Honestly you complain so so much about others having an unfair advantage its kind of nuts. You don't lose because others had an advantage its due to your play and tactics. I have seen some decision making you do it has much to improve. Its not because people are abusing something to get an advantage.

If you remove the retire button, it does nothing someone will still get those planets there is just an extra step of building a troop ship. And your answer to that is to just make galaxies as bland as humanely possible because god forbid there be any randomness in a galaxy.

My vote is don't remove, its fine, people join on accident and something comes up so they need to remove themselves occasionally. I have never seen it effect the outcome of a game.

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This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by chrisadamley: 30.08.2018 09:13.

30.08.2018 09:07 chrisadamley is offline Send an Email to chrisadamley Search for Posts by chrisadamley Add chrisadamley to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisadamley
Definitely not an issue in my opinion. Never has been an issue before.

Most certainly doesn't effect who wins the games.

Too many changes are being done in the name of "fair" play, when in reality that its effecting nothing.

Unless someone is making a second account to go get those planets, its not effecting anything. Even then, if they are forced to stay, you can just capture their hq and juicy planets with troop ships and a bomber.

Honestly you complain so so much about others having an unfair advantage its kind of nuts. You don't lose because others had an advantage its due to your play and tactics. I have seen some decision making you do it has much to improve. Its not because people are abusing something to get an advantage.

If you remove the retire button, it does nothing someone will still get those planets there is just an extra step of building a troop ship. And your answer to that is to just make galaxies as bland as humanely possible because god forbid there be any randomness in a galaxy.

My vote is don't remove, its fine, people join on accident and something comes up so they need to remove themselves occasionally. I have never seen it effect the outcome of a game.


As usual your response is negative to any changes that may close a loop hole for you to exploit. You say it absolutely doesn't effect who wins the game. Do you think people are stupid. If two players of equal strengths play each other with one player having 4 juicy planets and the other having 8 juicy planets, odds are the player with 8 juicy planets will win 9 out of 10 times for sure.

I understand that the sound of fair play scares you, but the lack of fair play is the main reason players don't stay. It causes hurt feelings. It'd difficult to see why you are so against fair play. But I know some players enjoy the advantages gained by exploiting loop holes. I've seen players join a galaxy with 3 to 5 planets per system and retire because they got 3. I've seen where the galaxy has been reset so the player can rejoin and have a second chance to get 5 planets which is unfair to the other players who have 3 or 4 planets in their home system. If the game is not fair to all players then what's the point ? This should not be a game of luck. It should be a game of strategy and skill with equal chances for every player, not a game where thugs, cheaters and gang-banger's rule.
My decision making in a game has nothing to do with fairness. However if you look at the average fame points earned per game, it would appear that your decision making is much worse then mine.
Your reply makes no sense, because you are arguing against fair play. I know changes are difficult for some, but this whole game was built around changes right from the start. It is an accumulation of changes. You only want changes to stop because you are comfortable with the loop holes you've exploited that new players may not be aware of, giving you an advantage.
There is no reason to retire. Just Quit ! That way it will show up in your record with a big zero for that galaxy so everyone can see who the abusers of the retire button actually are. Poor decision making is joining galaxies and dropping out for no good reason.
The reason I am usually the only one who try's to promote fair play is because when the foxes attack the chicken coop, only the hens will speak up about it. The foxes will say nothing. Or will complain because someone closed the door on the hen house.

This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 30.08.2018 13:56.

30.08.2018 12:40 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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I agree with chrisadamley. The Retire button needs to stay. The only way I will change my mind on this is if Some one (War_Cross) can give examples of the Retire Button being abused. Examples based on fact that can be verified with a Galaxy Replay.


quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross

question #2 ... When players retire after the game starts, does it show in history that they had joined the game ? And is he counted in the final calculation for fame points ?


If the player retires, he is not counted in the fame point calculations.
If the player Quits (Stops Playing) he is still counted in the fame point calculations. This will cause the galaxy to have an artificially high number of Fame Points.

If you have a rank 0 galaxy with 5 active players and 2 players who quit at the beginning of the game. The galaxy will have 140 Fame points to distribute.

If those 2 players retired, the galaxy will have 100 Fame points to distribute.
30.08.2018 15:30 Sygor is offline Send an Email to Sygor Search for Posts by Sygor Add Sygor to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

[quote]Originally posted by Sygor
I agree with chrisadamley. The Retire button needs to stay. The only way I will change my mind on this is if Some one (War_Cross) can give examples of the Retire Button being abused. Examples based on fact that can be verified with a Galaxy Replay.
[quote]
I cannot give you examples of the retire button being abused unless you include those that use it for no good reason. But that's not the point. The point is that when you used it is an abuse because it skews the game giving one player an advantage. If you don't think it's a big deal for one player having more juicy planets then anyone else, then why is it important for you to colonize the biggest planets you can find ? It's because they are more productive. If you don't think it's an advantage for you to have more big planets, then why don't you colonize only small planets from now on ? Why ... because you will loose. Do you think people are stupid ? A little common sense goes a long way.

You should win because you played well, not because you got lucky. What pride or joy can you gain by winning if you had an advantage ? Imagine 2 football teams where one team was allowed to have 3 extra players on the field. Or a chess game where one player starts with 3 extra queens. Would they take pride in their victory ? Of course not. Good sportsmanship and fair play is the key to a happy victory celebration.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 30.08.2018 20:03.

30.08.2018 17:59 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
I cannot give you examples of the retire button being abused unless you include those that use it for no good reason. But that's not the point. The point is that when you used it is an abuse because it skews the game giving one player an advantage.

Just asking you to point me to a game where this abuse has happened.


quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
If you don't think it's a big deal for one player having more juicy planets then anyone else, then why is it important for you to colonize the biggest planets you can find ? It's because they are more productive.

Depending on the game settings, it could be a big deal. But then the Retired Juicy planets are up for grabs by anyone. Much as (depending on game settings) any super rich planet is up for grabs by anyone. You could also look at these planets as a "Early War Trigger."

What is a Early War Trigger? It is a reason to attack someone. They have something you want or need. Before the change, Exo planets were the defacto "Early War Trigger"

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
Now I know that Sygor and others have had good reasons, or real life problems before using the retire button. But the bigger percentage of players have used the retire button for much lesser reasons. Some of the reasons could include ( and probably have already happened ) are ...
(1) They joined a galaxy and then noticed another they prefer.
(2) They give their friend the location of the system to be colonized.
(3) They have a grudge against the person posting the galaxy and just want to be a pain.
(4) They are just flighty and join and quit on a whim.

Well at least I got a good reason...Just wondering who the bigger percentage of players are?

If this is truly a concern of yours, along with "fair play." Then make all the planets in the War Only galaxies the same. Same size, same resources, same everything. Or don't have any juicy planets. Or make the Juicy planets not worth the effort to go after.

Believe it or not, there is no Grand Conspiracy. The high ranked experienced players want new players to join and have a good time playing.

Chrisadamley is an Ancient, and I have great respect for him. Doesn't mean I'm going to use nefarious actions to help him win a game, nor is he going to help me win a game.
31.08.2018 01:04 Sygor is offline Send an Email to Sygor Search for Posts by Sygor Add Sygor to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

You don't think that anyone would admit to it if the retire button was used to allow a friend to grab the abandoned juicy planets do you ? And there is no way to prove or disprove that it was a lucky discovery. Your are assuming that all players are honer based and this could never happened. But we all know that good sportsman ship does not exits in everyone's mind. Only the will to win.

You said ... Depending on the game settings, it could be a big deal. But then the Retired Juicy planets are up for grabs by anyone.
Yes they are up for grabs for anyone except the player near to the abandoned juicy planets will surely find them during the first few colony ship system discoveries.

Yes I could set up the galaxies with no juicy planets which I may have to do.

Are you brave enough to at least admit that the door is open ? Are you saying that you know for a fact it has never happened ? Prove it ? I'm sure it has happened before and will again. If you think everyone is trust worthy and would never take advantage of loop-holes, then why do you have security on your computer or at the local bank ? If it's no big deal then why not add some more loop holes. I'm sure if banks had no security that they would never be robbed because everyone is trust worthy and live by a code of honer.

Scarce exotic planets is random and does not stack the deck for one player.

Not sure where your great respect for Chrisadamley comes from, unless you mean that he also prefers diplomacy galaxies because he enjoys the imbalance of power it creates and fights to put down any changes to make the game fair for everyone.

You must admit that removal of the retire button will have zero effect on your game. It would only effect those that abuse it.

And you should admit that part of your fighting spirit comes from the fact that you would most likely be against any changes that would help war-only galaxies evolve closer to it's goal of fair and equal chances for all. Where luck is limited to a minimum influence on the outcome and strategy strength and good sportsmanship are applauded and honored. Only because you prefer a diplomacy format.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 31.08.2018 03:56.

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RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
You don't think that anyone would admit to it if the retire button was used to allow a friend to grab the abandoned juicy planets do you ? And there is no way to prove or disprove that it was a lucky discovery. Your are assuming that all players are honer based and this could never happened. But we all know that good sportsman ship does not exits in everyone's mind. Only the will to win.
It's apparent you are a very paranoid person and you think everyone is out to cheat. That friends kick back over a cold beer and come up with a master plan to gain some sort of advantage in a computer game..

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
You said ... Depending on the game settings, it could be a big deal. But then the Retired Juicy planets are up for grabs by anyone.
Yes they are up for grabs for anyone except the player near to the abandoned juicy planets will surely find them during the first few colony ship system discoveries.
Good for him..Now you have a reason to attack him, before he can develop the planets.


quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
Are you brave enough to at least admit that the door is open ? Are you saying that you know for a fact it has never happened ? Prove it ?
If you are talking about friends working together to use the retire button to gain an advantage, Then Yep, It has Never Happened. If you think other wise, let me know what game it happened in. Innocent until proven guilty.

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
And you should admit that part of your fighting spirit comes from the fact that you would most likely be against any changes that would help war-only galaxies evolve closer to it's goal of fair and equal chances for all. Where luck is limited to a minimum influence on the outcome and strategy strength and good sportsmanship are applauded and honored. Only because you prefer a diplomacy format.
I'm all for you taken the War Only format in any direction you want as long as it doesn't mess with other game types (Diplomatic and Team) Talking about Team Galaxies, removing the Retire Button could cause some serious issues with the Team selection process.

Actually my galaxy preference is Team, Diplomatic, and then War Only. In fact I think the next Weird Galaxy may be a War Only..or maybe a Team.
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RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I will number what you said in order and then reply. You said ...

(1) It's apparent you are a very paranoid person and you think everyone is out to cheat. That friends kick back over a cold beer and come up with a master plan to gain some sort of advantage in a computer game..
(answer) You call me a very paranoid person because I think people cheat ? It is now turn 53 and War Lord has now conquered all but 1 of Multiglows planets. The planets had no turrets on them. Anyone who has played a thousand games knows to build at least one turret per planet. Sure looks like planet gifting to me.

(2) Good for him..Now you have a reason to attack him, before he can develop the planets.
(answer) The player with twice as many juicy planets has an advantage. Admit it !

(3) If you are talking about friends working together to use the retire button to gain an advantage, Then Yep, It has Never Happened. If you think other wise, let me know what game it happened in. Innocent until proven guilty.
(answer) I guess you would say that gift giving or ways to cheat have never happened either ?
You are not naive, you know cheating occurs at CS. I'm just wanting to reduce the number of ways to do it.

(4)I'm all for you taken the War Only format in any direction you want as long as it doesn't mess with other game types (Diplomatic and Team) Talking about Team Galaxies, removing the Retire Button could cause some serious issues with the Team selection process.
(answer) So Erwin sets up a nice team galaxy for you and a few tics into the game someone decides to retire for no good reason. How does that feel ?

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 31.08.2018 21:17.

31.08.2018 20:57 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
I will number what you said in order and then reply. You said ...

(1) It's apparent you are a very paranoid person and you think everyone is out to cheat. That friends kick back over a cold beer and come up with a master plan to gain some sort of advantage in a computer game..
(answer) You call me a very paranoid person because I think people cheat ? It is now turn 53 and War Lord has now conquered all but 1 of Multiglows planets. The planets had no turrets on them. Anyone who has played a thousand games knows to build at least one turret per planet. Sure looks like planet gifting to me.
This has nothing to do with the Retire button.
Anyway, I've played plenty of Galaxies where I didn't build any PD. There is more then 1 way to play the game. It can be a risky move for the first 50 or so turns, but it does have it's advantages.

In the Enormous Galaxy, the Current top 2 players have no PD. Just because someone doesn't adhere to your tactics doesn't mean they are cheating.

Besides, how do you know who is who in this galaxy..Been looking at the Avatar File?

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
(2) Good for him..Now you have a reason to attack him, before he can develop the planets.
(answer) The player with twice as many juicy planets has an advantage. Admit it !
And it's up to you (the player) to realize he has a possible advantage and take it away from him. Now you have a compelling reason to go to war against him, before he can develop them.

If the guy quit, it would of been the Juicy planets and a Home World. So retiring is the better option.

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
You are not naive, you know cheating occurs at CS. I'm just wanting to reduce the number of ways to do it.
I'm also not Paranoid. If I think someone is cheating. I will investigate it by looking at the Replay of the galaxy.

quote:
Originally posted by War_Cross
So Erwin sets up a nice team galaxy for you and a few tics into the game someone decides to retire for no good reason. How does that feel ?
I would rather he Retire from the game then Quit.

If he retires his Juicy planets are open for his teammates to Colonize. If he Quits, his Teammates can't touch them.

Get rid of the Retire button and you screw up other galaxy types.
31.08.2018 21:39 Sygor is offline Send an Email to Sygor Search for Posts by Sygor Add Sygor to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I see that I can't convince you to change your vote, so I rest my case. Wink
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RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I feel the retire button should stay also. All though I have never used it, I have quit a couple games, but when I did, left all my defenses and troops in place, with enough banks/bankers to support the troops/ships.

I all so announced that I was quitting to all players, in game chat.

Nick

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War_Cross Player-Rank: 3 War_Cross is a male
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Registration Date: 20.06.2014
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Thread Starter Thread Started by War_Cross
RE: remove retire button Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

It's better if you don't tell anyone that your quitting. They will probably attack you if they know you are gone. If you don't tell anyone you might not get attacked at all.
If you have never used a retire button and there for have no use for it. Then I can only assume that you like the imbalance of power that may give you a slight advantage which you need to finish well.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by War_Cross: 01.09.2018 15:23.

01.09.2018 04:28 War_Cross is offline Send an Email to War_Cross Search for Posts by War_Cross Add War_Cross to your Buddy List
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