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bob_ninja Player-Rank: 3
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So I am going to throw out there this crazy idea. Fell free to ignore it or call me crazy Smile Smile Smile

In later stages of a galaxy the top players have very large fleets that can bomb ANY PDs into ash in a single turn. In fact defense becomes so difficult to most everyone uses the rule that offense is best defense and it becomes a race who can kill the most planets in the shortest time.

Using battleship hull it is easy to quickly create a 100K, 200K, 300K,... bombing fleet. Even with the best technology PDs cannot stop them. The main problem of course is space. Limited space is a fine concept and I have nothing against it. Still, in later stages having all that technology you would think that lack of space would no longer be a barrier to stronger PDs?!?!?!

Someone mentioned planets having moons. You could deploy additional shields and turrets on moons. Heck, you could builr artificial moons. That may be difficult for the game engine though.

Another possibility would be ODP - Orbital Defense Platform. It is a platform built by a planet in orbit. Simple. It has a certain amount of space. On it you build shields and turrets. Now I would limit what can be built on it as it is in space. So no point building factories in space when raw materials have to be brought up, etc. ODP would have a limited choice of facilities that can be built on them.

ODP is clearly a technology so it would show up in tech tree like any other tech. That means you can build them only after you advance enough. They would have upkeep cost like any other facility. The only difference is that they don't produce anything but add space. I assume it would be esier to model in the game engine than moons.

The point is that using natural (moons) or man made (ODP) structures one can have/obtain more space to enhance PDs as enemy fleets become bigger with the advent of battleships.

As things stand now, there is a rough equivalncy between PD tech and assualt tech improvements until about battleship and high end bombs at which point PDs stall. Or I guess PDs stall due to space limitation while fleets have no such limits.

In any case at some point PDs become useless which is a pity.
24.07.2007 17:37 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
gingerbill Player-Rank: 3
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im against the idea off increasing planet defences full stop . A large fleet in my opinion should easily defeat a planets defence , otherwise why bother having fleets .

I find ships becoming more powerful than PD's is what helps to bring a galaxy to its conclusion , otherwise it be a slow boring grind , were every planet has silly defences .
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerbill
im against the idea off increasing planet defences full stop . A large fleet in my opinion should easily defeat a planets defence , otherwise why bother having fleets .


Agreed.
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Ok... bob, "You're crazy"

gingerbill is quite correct.

PD's are already effective defense against a fleet that took equivalent resources to construct. If you want a planet to be protected against an inbound fleet you must commit the same total resources to the defense as that fleet took to construct. However that works out in the game mechanics is secondary to that goal.

Currently it works out be requiring the defender to build a sufficiently large fleet of gunships to counter the attacking fleet.

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24.07.2007 19:13 Gedrin is offline Send an Email to Gedrin Search for Posts by Gedrin Add Gedrin to your Buddy List
bob_ninja Player-Rank: 3
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Thread Starter Thread Started by bob_ninja
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerbill
im against the idea off increasing planet defences full stop . A large fleet in my opinion should easily defeat a planets defence , otherwise why bother having fleets .

I find ships becoming more powerful than PD's is what helps to bring a galaxy to its conclusion , otherwise it be a slow boring grind , were every planet has silly defences .


Our experiences may differ. All too often I see massive fleets "hoover" planets. There is no skill involved nor is it particularly interesting. Usually they overpower planets so much that they take them in a single turn and hardly take any damage.

Here is an example:
G34
Current Turn: 659

fleet
39534/354080/695940
31146/1247257

He probably has another couple of fleets of similar size. This galazy WAS over before turn 600. Probably half the players were killed before turn 400. You talk about galaxies being too long. This one barely started and it was already over.

Back to this fleet. A planet is facing 1 million heavy points!!!! How many turrets do I need to kill it? Granted I could send fighters to help it. Nevertheless a planet ought to be able to inflict some NONTRIVIAL damage.
Then there is half million bombing. Again, home many SGs??? If I stuffed a planet full of SGs perhaps it will take it 2 turns as opposed to one!?!?!

Of course I tried attacking his fleets, but thanks to the fleet splitting bug I can never kill it.

So at this point you end up with an endless game of hide a seek where inferior fleet splits and runs and each player races to cause the maximum damage to other player's planets in the minimum amount time. Planets at this point are defenseless money makers to support fleets.

My point is simply that at some point planet PDs are useless and they entirely depend on fighter cover.
24.07.2007 19:26 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by bob_ninja
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quote:
Originally posted by Gedrin
....
Currently it works out be requiring the defender to build a sufficiently large fleet of gunships to counter the attacking fleet.


To finish your sentence,
quote:
... AND spends countless hours online chasing inbound fleets and its ships when it splits.


The current admirals are still rather crude. They alone cannot mount an effective defense when defending player is offline. Even when defending fighters DO confront an inbound fleet then attacker does the split and run manouver, reassmbles some place else and proceeds to attack another system. Thus attacker can mount an infinitie number of attacks with minimal losses while defender has to spend every second online watching for inbound fleets to intercept.

Odds are stacked against defenders. Now if we want this game to be pure offense, bunch of privateers raping and pillaging Wink Smile Smile well then fine, I am crazy.

Also, how is it that ships have sufficient space for all those guns and shields, while planets that are supposed to be far bigger have so little space in comparison??????
24.07.2007 19:36 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
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Thread Starter Thread Started by bob_ninja
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P.S.

What made the original Civ great is the ability to pursue different goals, both military and other. It would be a pity if this one became purely military competition game. In that case, why don't we skip the entire building/research nonsense and start the game with X ships from turn 1?

Also make a quick weekend game with 5 min turns, small galaxy and zero planets. Maybe some fixed bases for repairs. But the entire building phase is a waste of time then, including PDs.

Example: Azilirar pursued research alone for most of G34. Once he finished all the tek he started building some ships. Guess what. It was way too late. He was crushed in no time. Even all his tek was of no use because he couldn't erect strong enough defenses.

So any alternative behaviour or any non-military goals are crushed because you cannot protect your achievements without a bunch of ships and aggressive active play.
24.07.2007 19:45 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
My point is simply that at some point planet PDs are useless and they entirely depend on fighter cover.


I think we all agree on that.
However if there were not true then the game would definitely devolve into a stalemate. Two sides, neither one able to destroy the other.

Fleet splitting in general is not a bug IMHO.
The bug is where I can consipre to have your fleet chase one small fast ship of mine while the bulk of them stay together and run off unmolested.

Erwin has a few todos including:
Bug 11 scans: one can split his fleets into several smaller ones to make the enemy use more than one scan.
I pointed out once the incongruency that if 100 ships are all individually at a location is space then opponents can see them all but if collected into a fleet they cannot.

Bug 20 11 BUG: when splitting fleets follow the new largest junk, instead of the same fleet with possibly only one ship left in it
http://www.cosmicsupremacy.com/forum/thr...d=9991#post9991
→ (at the beginning of a tick) remember to which fleet a ship belonged at the moment it is removed from a fleet. just before the tick happens determine the new largest chunk of all ships that once belonged to the original fleet

You raise a good point however out the countless hours...
although I find I spend WAY more time managing people than anything else becuase there is no transport admiral to transport only to those planets with less than X military [or any way to automatically stop them for that matter AAAARRRGGG].
But yes I tried once to create an admiral [had to be defense] to intercept all hostile ships but it did not work as I expected. I dunno maybe fleeing ships are not considered hostile. Of course in general this would have to be more explicit and say hostile ships/fleets of less than X units for example... but then you would need scans of everything... which no one does because they are not worth it.

Personally I would not be upset to see the ship count and total light/hvy units of every individual ship/fleet on the map.

I think then admirals COULD be made wiser and viable as a defense, where as now, I grant you that they are not, by a long shot.

Finally, oh yeah I think many people would love to alternate paths to victory...
cept the spaceship equivalent... what an intergalactic ship to the next galaxy... I always thought that was dumb... hey great you got to Alpha Centari first... then I show up and nuke the site from orbit... it was the only way to be sure.

Cultural, economic or diplomatic victories would be cool... SpaceCiv 2.0 I think, but way cool!

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If you think PD is weak:
If your enemy use two fleets, use 4 fleets and attack 4 different targets.
If your enemy splited two fleets on 8 pieces, split your fleet again, so you have 16 fleets that can attack 16!!! targets at once.
... You still think PD is weak???

Tongue

Seriously pure defensive strategy is ineffective now Neutral

quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
It would be a pity if this one became purely military competition game.


I agree with you on this.

quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
Example: Azilirar pursued research alone for most of G34. Once he finished all the tek he started building some ships. Guess what. It was way too late. He was crushed in no time.


Ha ha, I tried this once - with the same results. Gedrin attacked me 2 turns after I finished researching Labs (at turn 300).


quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
Another possibility would be ODP - Orbital Defense Platform. It is a platform built by a planet in orbit.


I don't like ODP, because all space structures should are built at shipyard. Also we have bombs designed to destroy planetary facilities and weapons used only against ships. So what kind of weapon can destroy ODP Confused

At last: ODP = Battleship + 2 Warp shield + 11 WI Roll Eyes
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quote:
Originally posted by Rismagi

Ha ha, I tried this once - with the same results. Gedrin attacked me 2 turns after I finished researching Labs (at turn 300).



OMG... that was G10, I honestly thought you were inactive, but once I start Surprised

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Thing is, it isn't the same amount of effort to make a defense on ALL planets to defend against one fleet.

You have to remember at this moment 1 fleet can take out an entire empire. You have to make multiple defenses to slow this down, and I don't want to waste the time making planetary defenses on all land on my planets.

While this extra space may help it doesn't counter act this having to do 50 to 100x the work(each planet) against someone that makes 1 offensive fleet. Obviously offense is less work.

For those that say, well just make a defensive fleet then. This has its problems.

You only need 1 attacking fleet to hit someone. If you have a dozen solar systems having 1 defensive fleet could take time to go after the offensive fleet. If the offensive fleet is faster than your fleet, then if he is smart, you have 0% chance at ever getting in conflict with the opposing fleet since he'll just go around you, or attack every planet you have except the one where your defensive fleet is(if your defensive fleet is stronger).

The solution to this is what I suggested in an earlier forum of having an empire wide defensive system. Which allows big defense to be made once on a planet(taking up the entire planet) which would defend all your planets. Although the planet or planets which has the big gun, is limited to how much defense it can have, and would need to be defended by a defensive fleet.

This adds the defensive fleet at a strategy to guard these few planets. The offense adds strategy since they would have to find then destroy these planets, to disable the entire network of planets defense(one victory would essentially make all the planets like they are now, defenseless), and add strategy for doing research vs military style defense vs offense.

This makes it so that the fastest biggest fleet isn't necessarily the one who wins, because currently that is the ONLY winning strategy.
NOTHING counteracts this.

Here is a link to my suggestion in this forum bob_ninja for further details: http://www.spaceciv.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=1530

Although Erwin liked this, I got the same reaction of people saying fleets would be made obsolete, there would be no point the game would last forever, it would be too hard etc... etc... sorry but a strategy game shouldn't be a walk in the park easy once you have massive military there should be a challenge, and need strategy to defeat your opponent, actually gather intel, perhaps put in a deception fleet and draw away a fleet defense from a planet you need to hit then hit it when he went for your other fleet or something of the likes...

It is a strategy game, and trust me even with my idea fleets would not become obsolete. Offensive as well as defensive, plus this would be at a very late stage of the game. Turn 400 at earliest, turn 500 to 600 on average before the research could be made to setup my system anyways.

I guess you could modify my idea to put a range of effectiveness for each gun and it gets weaker and weaker as it goes out, and use the amplifiers to amplify the signal to the weaker areas more cheapily. Or someway of perhaps not being able to protect all 100% of a persons empire my way too easily if that becomes the case, but these things can be discussed, and I am open to suggestions, but I think an empire wide defense is the only way to counteract effectively with strategy an offensive military strategy.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 24.07.2007 22:37.

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I have had some success making "fortress planets" to slow down attackers. That is, choose one planet, one you don't need very much. It works best if you do this before you actually come under heavy assault, so it has time to build up. Set that planet to build basically nothing but PDs. Fill all it's space with turrets and shields. A TRULY massive end-game fleet will still destroy it, though it may take two turns, and it likely won't be quite so massive afterwards. The medium-large end-game fleets, with, say, only 500k bombing, may not survive the encounter. The great thing is, said planet is almost always a complete surprise, because when you've got a fleet that size you rarely bother to scout the defenses of every planet before you hit it, since you're used to being able to destroy any defenses without worrying about it.

As to making orbital defense platforms, you can almost do that by just making ships without engines. They can't support other facilities, and they wouldn't be automatically upgraded like a turret is, but having a pile of battleships with nothing but weapons and shields sitting over a planet WOULD enhance it's defenses pretty substantially.

But it really does boil down to what The Phantom was saying: You only need one offensive fleet, but you need to match it's power in defense at EVERY planet, in order to have defense match offense. That's why it's so easy to make a fleet which outmatches virtually any PDs.

And the more I think about this, the more I like The Phantom's solution. It matches global offenses to global defenses.

In general, I'm fine with defenses being hard to crack. Sure, it will slow down the end game, but it will also make it a lot more strategic. What I like about it is that it doesn't JUST make them more powerful, like building a bigger, fancier turret. It adds strategic depth, just as you described, because it also introduces a weak point, and potentially adds a lot of value to the now-dilapidated scans, because you need to FIND that weak point.
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Phantom,
Wow neat idea. More elaborate than platforms. I like it.

That is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for. The current tech is heavily in favour of offense. There is very little choice on defensive side. More choices such as what you describe would be great.

HeruFeanor,
Fortress planets are easy to skip over and inflict little damage.

Regarding fleets being obsolete, a truly dominant SE can always build up a big enough fleet to defeat ANY defense, including these new proposals. Instead, higher end defense options allow a top 10 player having substantial technology to upgrade his defenses and try to survive to the end when facing bigger fleets. It provides more options to the present binary choice: attack or die.

Anyway I am not picky. Phantom idea sounds even better.
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Phantom's idea sounds good, but just to make an alternative - here is my proposal. It would make your fleet more useful when defending:

First thing:

Jump gate - takes a lot of space and turns to build, but provides instant transfer of your fleets between all planets owning a jump gate. In one turn you have your ships scattered over all your empire. In the next one - you have one strong defense fleet.

Second thing:

Warp interdictor - when built on a planet, it slows down all ships but yours. It's effective range would be just as big as those colorful balloons of player's territory.

This technologies come from Master of Orion 2.

Phantom's idea would ad strategy to the game... but always the same one - find the weak point. Still it would be better than now.

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quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
HeruFeanor,
Fortress planets are easy to skip over and inflict little damage.


Only if you find them before you attack. As I said before:

quote:
The great thing is, said planet is almost always a complete surprise, because when you've got a fleet that size you rarely bother to scout the defenses of every planet before you hit it, since you're used to being able to destroy any defenses without worrying about it.


Anyway,
quote:
Originally posted by Karp Killer
Jump gate - takes a lot of space and turns to build, but provides instant transfer of your fleets between all planets owning a jump gate. In one turn you have your ships scattered over all your empire. In the next one - you have one strong defense fleet.


This is potentially very useful, but only if you're logged in and actively on top of things. At the rate that attack fleets often move, even with the ability to move between your systems in one turn, you'll need to respond very quickly.

quote:
Originally posted by Karp Killer
Warp interdictor - when built on a planet, it slows down all ships but yours. It's effective range would be just as big as those colorful balloons of player's territory.


Wow. I had forgotten about that thing. I REALLY like this idea. Combined with the jump gate, it gives a lot more potential to actually get your fleet in order in time, and means you have the advantage in pursuing a fleeting fleet when it's in your territory.

quote:
Originally posted by Karp Killer
Phantom's idea would add strategy to the game... but always the same one - find the weak point. Still it would be better than now.


This is true, to an extent. Though I've already been thinking of ways to hide the weak point or make it harder to hit, so I think the strategic potential could get a bit more complicated.
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A Jump Gate, is a wormhole, that is exactly what a wormhole is, so probably would be good under wormhole research. Like a Stargate, if you have ever watch the movie or sci-fi series.

As for warp detector probably be good under Hyperspace Controller.

I like these ideas, would probably be interesting if it were combined with mine, or that may make defense a bit too powerful, I dunno.... but if it is Erwin can always balance the numbers in the system until it is just right.

Maybe another thing could be a tractor beam, which could be put on heavy ships only(within a certain range, it will try and pull a fleet you are chasing, slowing it down by a certain % of its full speed). Not sure which research this should be under... Dark-Matter maybe...

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 28.07.2007 08:01.

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quote:
Originally posted by HeruFeanor


As to making orbital defense platforms, you can almost do that by just making ships without engines. They can't support other facilities, and they wouldn't be automatically upgraded like a turret is, but having a pile of



This is called space turrets.......and it was thought of a long while ago....dont know who originally brought up the idea.

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i can think of at least 3 prior threads where this sort of thing has been suggested. i would look them up but i don't want to. Big Grin

i do like the warp gates and warp interdictors. this would allow someone to put up a viable defense using their ships instead of creating overly powerful fortifications(ala phantom). i like ship to ship action. as already noted balance issues do need to be considered.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom
Thing is, it isn't the same amount of effort to make a defense on ALL planets to defend against one fleet.

You have to remember at this moment 1 fleet can take out an entire empire. You have to make multiple defenses to slow this down, and I don't want to waste the time making planetary defenses on all land on my planets.
.


i completely disagree , you dont really need many defences if you simply build a fleet to defeat there fleet . 1 fleet can't take out anything if you destroy it with your fleet .

And defence has the major advantage , while the attacker has too build a massive amount of bombing , the defender builds loads of fighters .

Do you not have scouts? you can spot a big fleet building up way way before it gets going , then you move ships to destroy it , and you need a smaller fleet than the attacker , as half his fleet will be bobmers.

i've said it before , there is no way a large fleet should be stopped by planetary defence's , it's up to the defender to counter a fleet with his own fleet .
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But that only leaves the game with 1 strategy an offensive aggressive strategy right off the get go, and if you can't keep up with the person's fleet in order to kill it, or get it early enough, by doing more research first you are screwed.

Either way it only leaves the game with a binary option as said before, attack or die.

My way leaves more options... for the top 5, if you decide to play the game a bit differently....

Plus even if you do do your suggestion, it won't work anyways, he'll just fleet split from the planet, and if his ships are faster than yours, or more numbersous, he can split into more parts than you can, and if faster you'll never catch them... so no your idea won't work gingerbill!

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 29.07.2007 21:25.

29.07.2007 21:22 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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