Originally posted when re-balancing the Doctrine Tree
10.08.2012
These are our goals: - Bring every doctrine to life in a balanced way. Every doctrine has a potential for being a good option on some settings or situations on a FFA galaxy. Doctrines on the same tech level have a similar value (horizontal balance). Tree paths have a similar value (vertical balance). - Create a diversity of valid options. There are different ways of playing/winning the game, namely: Economy, Heavyfleet, Lightfleet, Cloak, and even variations that intermix them. They are differently good for a variety of settings, circumstances, and playing styles.
Sampling
Simple count from 12 FFA galaxies played since we started using the new Doctrine Tree
Green: Number of times the doctrine was used by the winner Blue: Number of times the doctrine was used by a player in the 3 first final positions
Level 6 Lightweight 4 / 6 Bio-Armor 1 / 8 Golden Age 4 / 11 Titan 1 / 4
Source: All FFA Galaxies from Doctrine Upgrade XP (started on 28.09.2012) to Milky Shake (ended on 14.01.2014)
Considering these values, I would like to propose that both goals have been successfully reached.
Furthermore, I would like to share my own opinion on the subject of heavy vs light vs economy, coming from what I have experienced when trying each of these paths on several different occasions. What I am about to describe can also be a first step for the creation of an advanced guide on how to play Cosmic Supremacy, should I somehow find the time to write it...
» Heavyships. At low and medium speeds, heavies are the absolute rulers of the board, the strongest option in the game both for ship vs ship and for ship vs PD combat. Researching and building heavies is simple and straightforward, and the doctrine path and its bonuses can easily be picked at any time while the core ship tech is being researched. It is usually necessary to plan the early/mid game carefully, when heavy ships are not yet available - diplomacy, building a lightfleet and/or raising defenses are three ways to overcome that transition period.
» Lightships. During early/mid game, lightships are equally available for all paths. Considering their higher tech versions, both standard and cloak, lighties are more difficult to play than heavies, and the top notch frigate queens can be especially tricky to reach (can only be built after Invisibility is researched, and they cannot use some of the intermediate ship components due to their size). Light fleets will dominate the air at high speeds (standard), or strike from the shadows (cloak), strategic assets that can be used to great effect. However, they are weaker than heavies on direct combat, and may struggle vs strong PD (especially HSE).
» Economy. The economy path puts the focus on planets, building up their potential towards an eventually decisive advantage. Stronghold and Habitat are core doctrines for this approach, providing access to enhanced defenses and space to a massive planetary build up. There are two tricky parts to this path: keeping the planets safe, and growing population when more space becomes available. When reaching critical mass, the economy path can overwhelm the board with a ship production rate capable of overcoming any bonuses from ship related doctrines.
» Which of the 3 paths is better? It depends on the type of galaxy, gameplay circumstances, strategy, player style and likings, and even player activity level. Between players of similar skill, and on a galaxy with equidistant settings, all paths have a similar raw potential, but they do require different approaches. For instance:
- The Economy path usually requires clever diplomacy and careful PD planning;
- The Lightfleet path requires precise timing (to use windows of opportunity vs heavies and economy), and usually higher levels of activity during wars (for evasion, since fleets are more fragile);
- The Heavyfleet path may require patience (ex: vs faster fleets), and good decisions on fleet positioning and movement (ex: using wormholes to compensate for fleet speed)
Comments are welcome...
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
I'm not sure I agree 100% with all your conclusions, but generally I think they're excellent observations. They certain can and should serve as basis for a new guide.
Would love to read it!
I'm not sure I agree 100% with all your conclusions, but generally I think they're excellent observations. They certain can and should serve as basis for a new guide.
Would love to read it!
Nongolf, good Friend, it is Great to see you too!
And thank you for your kindness!
About what I wrote, I would indeed call it observations rather than conclusions. And I also mean to create dialog and exchange of different views.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
Originally posted by tingling
Ooohh.. lanterns.. feels just like Chinese New Year!! I like the pic...
Will let others comment on the observations, cause I dont play FFA galaxies as much anymore, and I don't exactly know how to interpret the data :p
Year of the Horse, is it?
Well, best wishes for the festivities, and a Happy Equine Year to All!!
And whether you play them FFA's often or not, your observations are welcome.
quote:
Originally posted by Radiance
Heavy fleets are the fastest ones when I build them.
For yours and everybody else's reference, and also to complement what I wrote on the first post, here is how I generally classify a heavyfleet according to speed:
» Heavyfleet: Slow [below 50], Medium [50, 65], Fast [65,75], Very Fast [above 75]
As far as I am aware:
» At slow and medium speed, heavies are completely solid for fighting lighties of the same speed (assuming, of course, an equivalent investment in production).
» Heavies are still solid at fast speeds, but at very fast speeds they begin to lose that advantage (the turning point varies according to civ-traits and specific ship build-ups).
» Furthermore, some versions of Lightweight Cruisers are still good vs Lightships, even above speed 75.
» Generally speaking, inside their area of expertise, heavy ships are mighty; outside from it, they are owned.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by raf7: 04.02.2014 14:01.
Originally posted by tingling
Ooohh.. lanterns.. feels just like Chinese New Year!! I like the pic...
Year of the Horse, is it?
Well, best wishes for the festivities, and a Happy Equine Year to All!!
Yeap.. horse it is.. and I'm still in holiday mood :p
But anyway.. I dont know why .. but I find it easier to play lighties than heavies.. (and once in a while I hear people still claiming that lighties own heavies)... for me, it just seems an easier flow on when I choose mobility.. although rightfully speaking.. if I can reach doct: invisibility, I can probably have reached doct: dreadnought.. but somehow I dont exactly remember the last time I managed to get to dreadnought :p . I think it could possibly be that I dont go all the way to autofacts - which would usually mean I cant win the battle in the long term, but I tend to struggle bridging the gap when researching to autofacts and then building heavies before beefing them up with dreadnought. I think maybe my score rises too fast by then and I get squished already..
And somehow lighties seems a bit easier to play for me because I can use the element of surprise.. my heavies get tagged with cloaked scouts.. and I seldom am able to build the bigger fleet.. so heavies are probably more for people who are skilled enough to build and manage a big fleet. I like to play lights because since I tend to have the smaller fleet, I'd like the ability to run; or at least hide my fleet in a corner of some system - so far not a lot of players get to system scans in team galaxies to counter that - it's only against players like raf that playing lighties probably gets tough :p
Also, somehow I think the resorce cost for lighties isn't that high (esp. if you settle for DM drive frigs.. I've learnt from mizzi in one of the TGs that you can still deal a great damage with DM invisibility frigs.. either that or we just sucked that time :p).. that particular galaxy prompted me to suggest rads as an Achilles heel for lighties - cause deep down inside I actually feel like they're easier to play and build.. although I know the facts presented here show otherwise.. maybe it's a matter of preference..
O yea.. and it does seem like the right-sided doctrines for the first 2 level of doctrines dont get to win FFA galaxies much.. but I'm quite sure they're popular doctrines in team galaxies. Wonder why they dont win much in FFAs though - I remember I chose the old doct: metallurgy for Wild Bill Hickok.. and that didn't turn out too bad (though I was lucky with whom I had as my allies too). maybe they just dont give enough of a boost in the long run or just down to some random divergence from the actual mean or something
One last thing.. I know this is against the facts presented.. but I have an easier time with doct: manuf than I have with doct: knowl.. not sure why too :p maybe it's cause I'm thinking about my experiences in TGs and that I tend to play as a vanguard (which is also why I like lighties more)
Disclaimer: I'd like to note that I don't have a good track record in making correct observations - but I am trying to share my views from what I've experienced :p
Just thought I should bring something along to join the picnic heh
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 05.02.2014 17:45.
Very good stuff to bring to this picnin, if I may say so.
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
But anyway.. I dont know why .. but I find it easier to play lighties than heavies.. (and once in a while I hear people still claiming that lighties own heavies)... for me, it just seems an easier flow on when I choose mobility.. although rightfully speaking.. if I can reach doct: invisibility, I can probably have reached doct: dreadnought.. but somehow I dont exactly remember the last time I managed to get to dreadnought :p . I think it could possibly be that I dont go all the way to autofacts - which would usually mean I cant win the battle in the long term, but I tend to struggle bridging the gap when researching to autofacts and then building heavies before beefing them up with dreadnought. I think maybe my score rises too fast by then and I get squished already..
I would begin by noting that personal preference and raw potential are two different things. So, for those who like playing lightships more than they like playing heavyships, it is only natural that they do so, and it may even mean that, because they are liking it, they will perform better while using them - and this is equally true for someone who likes playing heavyships. I have played them both on different occasions, and found lightships much harder to play, by a long shot (especially because of the tech constraints that I have described, and the level of activity it requires).
I am aware of the claims that you mention, and I do see differently. I remember well that, when we were rebalancing the tree, some experienced players claimed that the new lightships would not be good enough (some said that bringing them up to par could not be done) and suggested removing the ship upkeep bonus from Juggernaut, or even disallowing lightships to heavyship builders - to which I replied: "wait and see, because lightships are already very good, probably as good as heavyships". And now that we have the opposite claims I would say: "look again, because heavyships are still great, easily as great as lightships". What I have felt when using heavyships vs lightships during 'Slow Research II' and 'The Truth Is Out There Galaxy' fully confirmed this.
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
And somehow lighties seems a bit easier to play for me because I can use the element of surprise.. my heavies get tagged with cloaked scouts.. and I seldom am able to build the bigger fleet.. so heavies are probably more for people who are skilled enough to build and manage a big fleet. I like to play lights because since I tend to have the smaller fleet, I'd like the ability to run; or at least hide my fleet in a corner of some system - so far not a lot of players get to system scans in team galaxies to counter that - it's only against players like raf that playing lighties probably gets tough :p
I find that playing lightships has much to do with cunning and may deliver a more immediate type of fun, and playing heavyships has more to do with stability and wisdom. This may make lightships more appealing to some players, but it does not make them more powerful.
Me, I like them both...
And yes, systems scans would probably be a priority tech for me when fighting cloaked fleets with heavies. Scouts can be detected, system scans cannot...
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
Also, somehow I think the resorce cost for lighties isn't that high (esp. if you settle for DM drive frigs.. I've learnt from mizzi in one of the TGs that you can still deal a great damage with DM invisibility frigs.. either that or we just sucked that time :p).. that particular galaxy prompted me to suggest rads as an Achilles heel for lighties - cause deep down inside I actually feel like they're easier to play and build.. although I know the facts presented here show otherwise.. maybe it's a matter of preference..
Yes, and again, I do believe preference can be quite a factor...
About DM-Inv Frigs, yes, they can be very good. Notice however that heavies can reach Singularity/Gauss Cruisers with a similar investment of research (without/before Jugg and Dread, while Frigs need to go deep into the doc tree), and that such Frigs are a snack to these Cruisers in direct combat. The superior shields would be enough to make the difference, but then there is also the weapons, with anti-light firepower easily available (beam lasers are good, proton lasers are blissful) where anti-heavy firepower is not.
I wonder how many players have already realized how powerful Proton Lasers are versus lightships. While heavyships can have a top notch anti-light weapon (lfp comparable to Infiltrators!) with a relatively small investment of research, DM-Inv Frigs have to go deep down the weapons branch to find anything as good to hit heavies with.
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
O yea.. and it does seem like the right-sided doctrines for the first 2 level of doctrines dont get to win FFA galaxies much.. but I'm quite sure they're popular doctrines in team galaxies. Wonder why they dont win much in FFAs though - I remember I chose the old doct: metallurgy for Wild Bill Hickok.. and that didn't turn out too bad (though I was lucky with whom I had as my allies too). maybe they just dont give enough of a boost in the long run or just down to some random divergence from the actual mean or something
One last thing.. I know this is against the facts presented.. but I have an easier time with doct: manuf than I have with doct: knowl.. not sure why too :p maybe it's cause I'm thinking about my experiences in TGs and that I tend to play as a vanguard (which is also why I like lighties more)
Yup, I see the same thing... Even with the improvements to other lvl 1 docs, Mobility is still quite powerful, and Knowledge became a very strong option for an extensive number of settings. Manufacturing, Reproduction and Trade can be awesome for early action, and Metallurgy is already a must for TGs. So, I am not sure if there would be a meaningful enough reason to review them... I might like to see Police State and Bio-Armor being somehow boosted though...
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
Originally posted by raf7
I remember well that, when we were rebalancing the tree, some experienced players claimed that the new lightships would not be good enough
Ahh.. I actually forgot about that part :p Good that you reminded me.. and I just looked back at Treasure Hunters and Post Apocalyse - which I somehow won, but I dont actually remember really playing them :p - I ended up with more heavies in both rounds. Though the tech I ended up with was really primitive still. I think I just didn't get bothered as much in those galaxies and could happily build away and have an easy ride throughout the galaxy.
quote:
Originally posted by raf7
I might like to see Police State and Bio-Armor being somehow boosted though...
I remember you mentioned this last time too - and the numbers do seem to show that police state and bioarmor aren't as popular in these last 12 galaxies - I contributed to that one Police State victory.. yay :p
Anyway, I had what you said in mind too when I was sharing my alternate version of a tech tree (and I think you mentioned that Manufacturing could use a bit of balancing as well).. It was meant as an academic exercise anyway, and was never a serious attempt to change the game balance in a meaningful way - thought they're still ideas worth giving some consideration about though. At least a nice appetizer in the picnic. (I still think the rest of that thread is a masterpiece heh.. but not the highlight I mean to bring up here)
But my idea was to give doct: police state some scanning range bonuses.. I thought it might be a subtle and less disruptive addition - although potential scan range bonuses can go up to 65% with knowldge and intelligence. But I thought that was nice as a counter against those pesky cloaked ships - and I thought it was a nice tradeoff to consider when playing against lighties - to either build your own lighties or get something that can find the lighties, or just go down with titan and play pure heavy but still limited against cloaked ships. At top stealth, invisibility ships still probably stay cloaked at considerably close ranges anyway :p Plus it sounds nice doesnt it? Police patrolling the skies = more scan range heh
I was also thinking about giving doct: manuf a late game boost - one that wouldn't affect the early game too much. So battleship cost/upkeep bonuses? (not ship hulls - which I understand can be disruptive to balance). Just thought that it might condition some players to go for J+D+Titan which would mean they have to commit to a certain plan if they want to realise the potential of this advantage in doct: manufacturing. And I think it's a nice tradeoff for them to forego flexibility in their planning. Plus, societies who are good in manufacturing = efficient battleship production, has a nice ring to it, doesnt it? :p
Didn't make any suggestions to Bioarmor though - looks good to the untrained eye :p
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 06.02.2014 03:21.
(Am a bit half-hearted while posting without knowing what's up with Erwin, but here goes... am hoping all is well)
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
I just looked back at Treasure Hunters and Post Apocalyse - which I somehow won, but I dont actually remember really playing them :p - I ended up with more heavies in both rounds.
While browsing to collect data for the little study I presented, I did notice your top positions... Giant in the playground, heh?
But my idea was to give doct: police state some scanning range bonuses.. I thought it might be a subtle and less disruptive addition - although potential scan range bonuses can go up to 65% with knowldge and intelligence. But I thought that was nice as a counter against those pesky cloaked ships - and I thought it was a nice tradeoff to consider when playing against lighties - to either build your own lighties or get something that can find the lighties, or just go down with titan and play pure heavy but still limited against cloaked ships. At top stealth, invisibility ships still probably stay cloaked at considerably close ranges anyway :p Plus it sounds nice doesnt it? Police patrolling the skies = more scan range heh
I was also thinking about giving doct: manuf a late game boost - one that wouldn't affect the early game too much. So battleship cost/upkeep bonuses? (not ship hulls - which I understand can be disruptive to balance). Just thought that it might condition some players to go for J+D+Titan which would mean they have to commit to a certain plan if they want to realise the potential of this advantage in doct: manufacturing. And I think it's a nice tradeoff for them to forego flexibility in their planning. Plus, societies who are good in manufacturing = efficient battleship production, has a nice ring to it, doesnt it? :p
Didn't make any suggestions to Bioarmor though - looks good to the untrained eye :p
I think your doc Tree adjustments for Manuf and Police St are fine. They are fresh, they make sense, and they have my support. Titan is hard to reach, and I think it deserves the extra indirect boost; also, when/if we rebalance Battleships, Manuf will become an even more interesting investment.
About Mobility, I am unsure... my gut says to let it be as it is. Reproduction is an awesome doctrine for growing pop on big planets, Colonization is great for gals with lots of planets and also when the col-mod is expensive, and Metallurgy is already speeding TG's significantly and can be a life saver when we have no metal in our HW system.
About Bio-Armor, my suggestion would be to improve Military and PD Bonuses to +15% (instead of +10%).
These are all relatively small adjustments, but I would somehow feel a sense of completion by setting them...
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
Before reconsidering your ideas (on Manuf and P-State), my intention was to propose an increase on Production Output (Manuf) and Mil Induced Loyalty (P-State). These would be easier to set (no need to adjust the boxes, lines, etc), but if the extra work is not too much trouble, I clearly prefer what you propose, as it adds a different flavor.
Also, I believe that the +15% for Bio-Armor (for Military and PD) is necessary to bring it up to par, but probably as far as we can go. Bio-Armor is the only lvl 6 doctrine delivering immediate gain and no losses (Lightweight decreases ships hitpoints, Golden Age and Titan need time to deliver their potential), and +15% PD can be a significant boost to a strong HSE grid.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
One other thing though - I never quite understood what versatility is meant to do. It does seem underutilised compared to other level 4 doctrines. So how do you play with versatility again? :p
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
Originally posted by tingling
One other thing though - I never quite understood what versatility is meant to do. It does seem underutilised compared to other level 4 doctrines. So how do you play with versatility again? :p
Good points... and that one time Versatility was used, it was me.
Actually, I am a bit worried about it... it is a powerful doctrine, but its position and appearence are less attractive than Intelligence (which has very good immediate bonuses and can be reached directly from Knowledge).
Why is Versatility a powerful doctrine?
» For the lightships, when combined with Invisibility, it unlocks the most powerful of all frigates, a ship capable of fitting one Singularity drive, one Warp shield, two Infiltrators (or one DM-Bomb), and a cloaking module. These frigate queens are quite hard to reach in good time, but they are quite something.
» For the other ships and paths, the bonifications are as good as Juggernaut's.
» And then there is the whooping pilling-up wealth, unlocking the possibility of a very versatile and unique Economy, with a great number of shipyard planets capable of generating large sums of cash while also ready for massive production.
So, although it has a great potential, it comes with a price on planning:
» Preparing the planets with a good timing (more shipyards and less banking)
» Addressing the board with the intention of using the top Frigates as main fleet (very, very tricky)
Versatility may exceed all other lvl4 doctrines in terms of potential, but the others are much easier to use, and produce a more immediate effect. So, to be honest, I do not know what to do about it...
I do know that, even with full knowledge of its potential, I have consistently felt inclined to select Intelligence while playing the game. So, it could be a good idea to look again into Intelligence vs Versatility.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
I'm currently in the XP galaxy, and I'm inclined to choose Intelligence too (although I'm trying to tell myself to give versat a try too), but I'm a long way from researching the stuff I want and the boost to science seems nice (plus I'm taking too long to build planet scans - I like them cheap :p) .. well actually I might be able to take versatility anyway and try it out..
Seems to me that versatility has a lot of late game benefits, but might need some more earlier candy to enjoy or something.. though speed boosts cant be that bad already.. maybe the 5% just don't look that attractive (I think it's more of a psychological thing.. like how some people used to think that $9.99 is a lot cheaper than $10).. hmm.. dont know
Would heavy firepower +8% make Versatility too strong? I was thinking it wouldn't affect the frigate queen balance;
Makes it more attractive than Jugg (not my intention actually - but Jugg has the even stronger Dread to choose from anyway, and from the stats, it's stil a popular enough doctrine);
And +8% heavy fp sounds like it's for players who have chosen stealth, but would like to change their mind and play heavy instead due to changing circumstances.. so Versatility is something that helps them reduce in about half the -15% from Stealth (so they get to choose either to continue playng lighties or move to heavies)
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
I just examined this doctrine from my Cup galaxy. You can only get it from Stealth or Stronghold.
I tried Stronghold once from a tg and found the extra space not so hot from late in the game. It was past time to be building citizens--I needed to be making ships or science with my citizens by then.
If Versatility could be accessed from the other doctrines above it--that would change the game and make more options practical
Originally posted by tingling
I'm currently in the XP galaxy, and I'm inclined to choose Intelligence too (although I'm trying to tell myself to give versat a try too), but I'm a long way from researching the stuff I want and the boost to science seems nice (plus I'm taking too long to build planet scans - I like them cheap :p) .. well actually I might be able to take versatility anyway and try it out..
Seems to me that versatility has a lot of late game benefits, but might need some more earlier candy to enjoy or something.. though speed boosts cant be that bad already.. maybe the 5% just don't look that attractive (I think it's more of a psychological thing.. like how some people used to think that $9.99 is a lot cheaper than $10).. hmm.. dont know
Besides building up a nice and viable cloak, the original intention was to provide Intelligence with good tools for avoidance (scanners, scans and speed), and these would help to match Versatility's ship superiority (stronger ships with reduced production cost). And then, where Intelligence has the wastage boost, Versatility has the pilling-up boost (which, as we saw, has the potential but requires good planning). To be honest, when I proposed these two doctrines, I was a bit worried that Versatility might be too strong, and I completely underestimated its cost in terms of the amount of attention needed to explore its potential (especially versus the sweet immediate and easy to use nature that Intelligence has).
However, truth be told, it does not bother me that much to have a hard to use doctrine that will eventually produce something awesome when someone dedicates the attention to make it happen (and this was why I did not bring it up initialy, even if it was bugging me a bit - and I am very glad that we are discussing it). Also, and this would probably be my strongest argument for keeping it as it is, I am quite positive that some galaxy settings are quite inviting for using Versatility, where it could emerge as a kind of surprise option, bringing new colors to the game:
» Moderate/low tech cost (a game played/decided with high tech);
» Big sector size (super speed from Sing drives is a greater factor);
» Good quality planets (not giants though, which can only be fully used by heavyship builders);
» A significant number of planets per player.
Besides the good conditions for building the V-Frigate Queens as main fleet, Intel's bonuses on wastage and scan costs would be much less relevant here.
Edit: I have just remembered something else. When production planets are big enough so that their production per turn exceeds the cost of one frigate, Versatility captures the overflow with the pilling-up wealth bonification, making it immediately significant without any planning. On such occasions, this makes Versatility clearly superior to Invisibility. If V-Frigs are viable vs heavyships on these settings is something that has never been tested, though it is easy to see that, even if they are, there is a limit to how useful this cash boost can be (as hinted above, giant planets would be wasting too much production, to the point of generating superfluous cash if used to build frigs).
quote:
Originally posted by tingling
Would heavy firepower +8% make Versatility too strong? I was thinking it wouldn't affect the frigate queen balance;
Makes it more attractive than Jugg (not my intention actually - but Jugg has the even stronger Dread to choose from anyway, and from the stats, it's stil a popular enough doctrine);
And +8% heavy fp sounds like it's for players who have chosen stealth, but would like to change their mind and play heavy instead due to changing circumstances.. so Versatility is something that helps them reduce in about half the -15% from Stealth (so they get to choose either to continue playng lighties or move to heavies)
hmmm... Stealth actually makes heavyships stronger: the firepower is untouched (+15% ship fp & -15% heavyship fp =» +15% lightship fp & untouched heavyship fp), and the +10% hps affects all ships. As far as I am aware, the heavyship path that goes through Versatility is already quite good, and the doctrine has a more immediate value (the +5% hull size is almost insignificant to lightships unless combined with Invisibility, but immediately significant for heavies). So, yes, +8% heavyship fp would probably make it too strong.
quote:
Originally posted by Radiance
I just examined this doctrine from my Cup galaxy. You can only get it from Stealth or Stronghold.
I tried Stronghold once from a tg and found the extra space not so hot from late in the game. It was past time to be building citizens--I needed to be making ships or science with my citizens by then.
quote:
Originally posted by raf7
There are two tricky parts to this path: keeping the planets safe, and growing population when more space becomes available.
quote:
Originally posted by Radiance
If Versatility could be accessed from the other doctrines above it--that would change the game and make more options practical
I think the current limitations on accessing doctrines are generally a good thing, because they add depth to the options we make. So, I like the current structure and would generally keep it even if we could review them, which we cannot, because we are still following the "keep it simple so that it may eventually be implemented" principle.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by raf7: 13.02.2014 15:28.
Originally posted by raf7
About DM-Inv Frigs, yes, they can be very good. Notice however that heavies can reach Singularity/Gauss Cruisers with a similar investment of research (without/before Jugg and Dread, while Frigs need to go deep into the doc tree), and that such Frigs are a snack to these Cruisers in direct combat. The superior shields would be enough to make the difference, but then there is also the weapons, with anti-light firepower easily available (beam lasers are good, proton lasers are blissful) where anti-heavy firepower is not.
I wonder how many players have already realized how powerful Proton Lasers are versus lightships. While heavyships can have a top notch anti-light weapon (lfp comparable to Infiltrators!) with a relatively small investment of research, DM-Inv Frigs have to go deep down the weapons branch to find anything as good to hit heavies with.
Took a while for me to appreciate this particular comment in the picnic - but when Galaxy 2023-03 is over and done with, I think it would make an interesting case study, regardless of how the galaxy ends. I take back my comment that light ships are 'easier' to play. I finally have more experience to say that it can be pretty challenging to play.
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
In my opinion, if we were to match two players of similar skill, one playing heavy and the other one light:
» the heavy will have fleet advantage in ship vs ship and ship vs planets
» the light may have cloak advantage or speed advantage
» the light will have a lot of work (more time and attention are needed)
» the heavy can play it patiently and safely
» the heavy will have an overall significant advantage (possibly decisive)
This is a general view, and the galaxy settings do matter. In games with smaller planets and big sector size (which brings up the value of speed), lightships become more viable. But in games with big and rich planets (or even with a decisive super HQ/home system), lightships are not even viable (as a winning option).
Even though lightships are, imo, generally weaker and harder to play, this was still a huge upgrade to what we had before the new doc:tree, where they were completely and utterly smashed as soon as the first destroyers would enter the board. Now, they do have some cards they can play, which can certainly be game winners if played by surprise against unprepared opponents.
__________________ A Jedi's strength flows from the Force.
the heavy will have fleet advantage in ship vs ship and ship vs planets
Ah - very true that.. my light ships with invisibility is no match for them dreadnought destroyers at the moment - even though I have a sizable economic advantage.
I just need to make sure I don't run my fleet into theirs and that I can take planets faster than they can take mine
__________________ Reminder to self: Patience is a virtue
Check out my pet projects here: https://gotm.io/tingling
