Cosmic Supremacy Forum » General » Rebalancing the tech-tree » Hello Guest [Login|Register]
Last Post | First Unread Post Print Page | Recommend to a Friend | Add Thread to Favorites
Pages (4): « previous 1 [2] 3 4 next » Post New Thread Post Reply
Go to the bottom of this page Rebalancing the tech-tree
Author
Post « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
|Odi| Player-Rank: 2 |Odi| is a male
Builds Destroyers without Bathroom


Registration Date: 15.02.2006
Posts: 146
Location: Germany

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

sounds good, will be an interesting round this time Smile
07.10.2007 13:28 |Odi| is offline Send an Email to |Odi| Search for Posts by |Odi| Add |Odi| to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


Registration Date: 16.08.2007
Posts: 602

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

guess it is time to start researching the scanning side as "suicide scouts" are now useless Roll Eyes

Quantum shield space== 28?

i redesigned my fleet and found that cruisers look better now
though something looks wrong.....i am liking the shuttles armed with antimatter bomb and antimatter drive better

whoa 6 of those shuttles pack more bombing power than a destroyer Tongue

Beware my kamakazi shuttles now. 1 turn-1 military and 1200 bombing

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Trantor: 07.10.2007 15:11.

07.10.2007 15:00 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
Admiral Moo


images/avatars/avatar-124.gif

Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,490
Location: Vienna, Austria

Thread Starter Thread Started by Erwin [CS]
Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Trantor
Quantum shield space== 28?

That's right. That was necessary to address Gedrin's suggestion to get a better progression for the Shield Generator.
07.10.2007 15:15 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


Registration Date: 16.08.2007
Posts: 602

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

but as all other components are rounded up to '10' it leaves 2 space empty basically does not give any benefit to the ship.
07.10.2007 15:33 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Rismagi Player-Rank: 3 Rismagi is a male
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


images/avatars/avatar-326.jpg

Registration Date: 08.11.2006
Posts: 653

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
quote:
Originally posted by Trantor
Quantum shield space== 28?

That's right. That was necessary to address Gedrin's suggestion to get a better progression for the Shield Generator.


Smile Smile Trantor is right, there is no difference between space=28 and space=30
07.10.2007 15:49 Rismagi is offline Send an Email to Rismagi Search for Posts by Rismagi Add Rismagi to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
Admiral Moo


images/avatars/avatar-124.gif

Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,490
Location: Vienna, Austria

Thread Starter Thread Started by Erwin [CS]
Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Yep I know, it has no benefit to ships. But Shield Generators at Quantum-Shield level will be stronger.

Before: 15 x floor(20*10/30) = 90%
Now: 15 x floor(20*10/28 ) = 105%

I know, I could have received a similar result by getting rid of the floor-rounding, but then I would receive odd numbers for the higher shield-technologies. So that was the easiest/quickest thing for me to.

But of course if someone wants to rebalance the higher shield technologies to receive "straight looking" numbers, you are welcome to do so.
07.10.2007 16:01 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
IronFly Player-Rank: 2
Wonders where that new Farmer came from


Registration Date: 30.09.2007
Posts: 1

effective G52 or G51? Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Are these changes supposed to be for G52? G51's tech tree looks like it changed.
07.10.2007 16:44 IronFly is offline Send an Email to IronFly Search for Posts by IronFly Add IronFly to your Buddy List
TerraNova Player-Rank: 2 TerraNova is a male
Invades without Troop Ships


images/avatars/avatar-370.jpg

Registration Date: 21.08.2007
Posts: 396
Location: Canada

RE: Some more fixes Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
The following things have been implemented too, and will become available with G52:
  • increase duration of system scan to 8, and add ability to detect cloaked ships
  • prevent kamikaze shuttle scans: battle reports without enemy info if your ships did not survive at least 10% of the battle duration
  • decrease cost of Route scan and Fleet scan, so even player with 8 colonized planets at turn 100 could build them easily

Nice, those should make a difference. Or will there now be really buff scout fleets? Smile Hopefully the Sci Lab improvement is just right for compensating researching the scan tree sooner. Haven't experimented with the more extensive stat changes yet.

Is there a screenshot of the new tech tree somewhere?

__________________
"It was horrible -- horrible. Like a chicken." - original script for Alien
07.10.2007 17:44 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
Admiral Moo


images/avatars/avatar-124.gif

Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,490
Location: Vienna, Austria

Thread Starter Thread Started by Erwin [CS]
RE: effective G52 or G51? Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Thanks for pointing that out! That problem is corrected now. However 2 of the recent changes are in fact effective for all galaxies:

1) increase duration of system scan to 8, and add ability to detect cloaked ships
2) prevent kamikaze shuttle scans: battle reports without enemy info if your ships did not survive at least 5% of the battle duration
07.10.2007 17:44 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
TerraNova Player-Rank: 2 TerraNova is a male
Invades without Troop Ships


images/avatars/avatar-370.jpg

Registration Date: 21.08.2007
Posts: 396
Location: Canada

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Minkis
http://www.steampowered.com/stats/csmark...y=price_current

something i mentioned to quickstrike. No idea if it can apply.

That's pretty cool, didn't know they were doing that.

__________________
"It was horrible -- horrible. Like a chicken." - original script for Alien
07.10.2007 17:46 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
jackjack Player-Rank: 2
Rules with an Iron Pinky


images/avatars/avatar-1220.jpg

Registration Date: 04.07.2007
Posts: 1,379
Location: UK

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

i was going to say it made sense when I saw it, then you stuck back for G52

__________________
Warrior poet tripping on acid.
07.10.2007 17:58 jackjack is offline Search for Posts by jackjack Add jackjack to your Buddy List
gingerbill Player-Rank: 3
Builds Destroyers without Bathroom


Registration Date: 01.03.2007
Posts: 196

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
[i]2) The main reason I see that 16 techs is all you need is that there is really no effective reactive defensive strategy. Even when under attack the best response seems to be attack your enemy and do it faster than he is hitting you. Of course in order to do that you need a big offensive fleet early on as a deterent. Well if you have to build it you might as well use it! Hence there is no real reason to go higher in tech... this does not mean you NEED to convert all science planets to production once you have 16 techs but if you do and the other guy does not, he is dead.

I have tried a big fast defensive fleet and they spend so long moving to intercept that I cannot help but think I would have been better off attacking enemy planets directly. There was a suggestion concerning an elaborate set of PDs that transmitted energy about and could whack enemy fleets. Personally I think a new planetary facility, "stargate" would do the trick. Then your big defensive fleet would not need to spend SO much on engines just to have the "illusion" of a reactive ability and not having the punch required considering all the investment of crews needed to build it. It would also help in alliances [as I presume allies could use your gates"].


what gedrin has said here i completely agree with . The only defence to a full scale attack is to counter with a full scale attack . Defence doesn't really work . You just have to try and kill there planets quicker than they kill yours. I don't think impriving PD's is the way ahead but instead a system that lets your fleet respond to attack. I have tried fast interceptor ships (which is what you would use in a RL situation) but it doesnt seem to work compared to a counter attack on there planets.


Looks like you been busy erwin . I'm so happy to see the kamikaze scouts gone . Looks like there are alot of changes been done . Guess it's time to try them out Smile
08.10.2007 20:45 gingerbill is offline Send an Email to gingerbill Search for Posts by gingerbill Add gingerbill to your Buddy List
diglis Player-Rank: 3 diglis is a male
Invades without Troop Ships


Registration Date: 23.12.2005
Posts: 297
Location: Lithuania

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

kamikaze ships will never gone for me Smile


soory miss post Smile

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by diglis: 08.10.2007 21:03.

08.10.2007 21:02 diglis is offline Search for Posts by diglis Add diglis to your Buddy List
bob_ninja Player-Rank: 3
Builds Destroyers without Bathroom


Registration Date: 23.02.2007
Posts: 241

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I actually did research and build fighter cruisers and bomber battleships. While both are formidable beasts once all the technology is done, they were always overwhelmed by many more destroyers and even frigates.

I had a few battles where I would kill 100 frigates and loose only few cruisers. Still I lost the war. Their numbers were simply too great. I very much tempted to stop at destroyers as others said.

Even with these latest changes to make cruisers and battleships more appealing, one more problem remains. One needs a number of scientists to research the tech. They need to be able to work in peace. That means one needs decent PDs and/or defense fleets. Of course, having a lot of scientists implies having less workers building defense fleets. Not to mention workers making money to pay for scientists.

Odds are very good that you will be attacked and defense fleets will be insufficient BEFORE getting all the necessary tek AND having time to actually build cruisers and battleships. As said before, PDs are of little use. Thus you depend on defense fleets which have to be much smaller than attacker's who focused on building and less on science. All that is assuming equal size.

In practice the more aggressive builder/attacker will accumulate more planets based on his more aggressive strategy. By the time your turn comes he'll usually have more planets and far greater building capacity.

In other words, unless EVERYONE places more or less equal emphasis on science, odds are that a big fleet will knock on your door while you are still chasing tek and lack defense ships.

To protect scientists one would need powerful PDs. Of course no one wants powerful PDs, so scientists are kind of .... well doomed Wink

Still I wonder how will these changes work out. Especially as kamikazi shuttle are retired. That is fantastic.
08.10.2007 22:13 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
Admiral Moo


images/avatars/avatar-124.gif

Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,490
Location: Vienna, Austria

Thread Starter Thread Started by Erwin [CS]
Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by bob_ninja
Still I wonder how will these changes work out.

Well, I got your point, completely. I wonder myself if these changes are enough. They are certainly a step in the right direction. Maybe some more rebalancing is required, but we will only know after this galaxy.

However, a few more changes are required:

1) a empire-wide defense system, that becomes available rather early in the game
2) giving a boost to defense ships in orbit of your own (or an allies') planet, possibly via a "command center" facility
3) ability to create a system of stargates (usable by allies as well), that allows you to build a (limited) network of space motorways, mainly for defensive purposes
4) possibly giving a disadvantage to super-fleets, by making their firepower less effective, the more overwhelming their advantage is (details would need to be discussed)

I would like to have 1) and 2) implemented rather soon. 3) would take a lot more work, so it is further down the road, but will come eventually. 4) should only be a all-else-fails option.
08.10.2007 22:35 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
bob_ninja Player-Rank: 3
Builds Destroyers without Bathroom


Registration Date: 23.02.2007
Posts: 241

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Agreed.
Sounds great Smile
09.10.2007 01:40 bob_ninja is offline Send an Email to bob_ninja Search for Posts by bob_ninja Add bob_ninja to your Buddy List
MadSapper Player-Rank: 2
Serves Soup on Colony Shuttles


Registration Date: 13.06.2007
Posts: 16

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Personally I think 3 is the only option and properly balanced.

1 might stagnate the early game more so then it is now. Even a light turret for the first 100 turns is pretty formidable.

2 could possibly cause issues as well. You'll need a huge fleet to attack someone becuase you'll have to most likely kill thier fleet. You attack someone but don't have the strength to kill thier fleet orbiting the planet with 4 heavy turrets and 3 shield gens. You can either sit there with a larger fleet wasting valuable time hoping he leaves the planet or you can fly off and then he recaptures everything when you're asleep.

I fought a war where the enemy had a faster fleet he bunkered down in a fortified planet. He had something like 7 shield gens and a dozen turrets. The war lasted over 10 days and I couldn't do much about it. Eventually another person stopped by my planets while I was playing tag and it because a delaying game on my part.

4 sounds a little too socialist for me. Penalized for a better fleet?

3 has the most promise IMHO. Personally I feel the ability to create stargates on a selective or limited basis would do great things for the defensive game. For a defensive fleet to be worthy, you either need a fleet in every system with loads of PDs to bolster them or a very fast fleet that can react. Having a stargate in every system would be over powered. Maybe being able to build 1 stargate per 2 or 3 systems that you own would give the flexibility needed without allowing instant reloaction of all ships. Possibly making the stargate "charge up" based on it's distance.
09.10.2007 06:41 MadSapper is offline Send an Email to MadSapper Search for Posts by MadSapper Add MadSapper to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


Registration Date: 16.08.2007
Posts: 602

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]

However, a few more changes are required:

1) a empire-wide defense system, that becomes available rather early in the game
2) giving a boost to defense ships in orbit of your own (or an allies') planet, possibly via a "command center" facility
3) ability to create a system of stargates (usable by allies as well), that allows you to build a (limited) network of space motorways, mainly for defensive purposes
4) possibly giving a disadvantage to super-fleets, by making their firepower less effective, the more overwhelming their advantage is (details would need to be discussed)


1.In scan side you get a new gun called missile turret which will shoot down 1% of the enemy attacking ships. you can build only 1 per planet. that will scare the superfleet of 200-300 frigates but not a 60 cruiser fleet
2.Command senter available with cruisers which give 50% boost to all planetary defence and orbiting ships
3.stargate is not a good idea. then i will merge all my fleets to a superfleet and use stargates to reach where needed. one super defense fleet will make the game a stalemate. though i like the idea of starbase which will protect the sun and all orbiting planet by adding 200% to the PD. only way will be to take out starbase before you can take out any planets.
09.10.2007 08:03 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Rismagi Player-Rank: 3 Rismagi is a male
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


images/avatars/avatar-326.jpg

Registration Date: 08.11.2006
Posts: 653

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
2) giving a boost to defense ships in orbit of your own (or an allies') planet, possibly via a "command center" facility


I have an idea: there is no need for new facility. We can add Defence fleet support functions to the existing facilities:

Central Defense Agency (space 30->14, cost 600->400, not unique)
Allows the production of scans.
Each structure add 1 rank (or 10% firepower) to ships in orbit.

and

Shipyard (space 30->10, not unique)
Allows the production and repairing of ships.
Each structure increase Repairing speed.
Heavy ships: (2 + #shipyard*2) %
Light ships: (6 + #shipyard*3) %

Then it would be possible to add additional requirements for producing a scan/ship:
#1 CDF Allows the production of Fleet & Route Scans
#2 CDF Allows the production of Planetary & Military Scans
#3 CDF Allows the production of Tech & System Scans
#1 Shipyard Allows the production of Shuttle & Corvette
#2 Shipyard Allows the production of Frigate & Destroyer
#3 Shipyard Allows the production of Cruiser & Battleship

Pretty realistic to me.

Owner of the territory have 3-4 shipyards everywhere, while invader will waste 2-4 turns just to build number of shipyards in order to achieve reasonable repairing speed.

It is possible to use Military Camps too, but it's better to leave it for future ground combat Smile
09.10.2007 13:53 Rismagi is offline Send an Email to Rismagi Search for Posts by Rismagi Add Rismagi to your Buddy List
TerraNova Player-Rank: 2 TerraNova is a male
Invades without Troop Ships


images/avatars/avatar-370.jpg

Registration Date: 21.08.2007
Posts: 396
Location: Canada

Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by MadSapper
2 could possibly cause issues as well. You'll need a huge fleet to attack someone becuase you'll have to most likely kill thier fleet. You attack someone but don't have the strength to kill thier fleet orbiting the planet with 4 heavy turrets and 3 shield gens. You can either sit there with a larger fleet wasting valuable time hoping he leaves the planet or you can fly off and then he recaptures everything when you're asleep.

This is assuming there's only one system to attack. If you have your superfleet at one system, I wouldn't bother attacking it (I would even avoid that now), I'd try to take your other planets. If you try to chase after me, maybe I'll intercept you in deep space, fairer fight; or if I can outrun you, just do that. The point of this bonus is it encourages smaller garrison fleets, so you can try to defend more than one or two systems at a time with fleets. This puts the emphasis on fleets for both attack and defense.

quote:
Originally posted by MadSapper
4 sounds a little too socialist for me. Penalized for a better fleet?

The challenge would be to come up with an interesting and realistic system for doing so, rather than a simple penalty that feels arbitrary and artificial. Something that would encourage smart play.

I like the multiple Shipyard / CDA (CDF?) idea. Just make sure the numbers don't allow a crazy super-repair planet approach, or make such an approach appropriately risky. Diminishing returns might be needed, but with the proper costs maybe not necessary.

I don't think 10% firepower per CDA is enough of a bonus, though. Even at 14 that's a lot of space, and you'll want one at every planet. In fact, combining the function with this facility may not be a good idea *because* you'll want one at every planet.

skip to here for actual suggestions...

I'm actually in favour of *not* having a separate building for the garrison fleet bonus. You'll want it at every planet anyways, so just include the ability with the PD's. No need to increase costs, I think, since the whole idea is we're buffing defense. How about this simple system:

- If the ships' firepower/armour can be matched by the planet's firepower/armour, the ships' firepower/armour is doubled

Example #1: if the fleet's firepower is 1000/1000 (light/heavy), and the planet it's orbiting has 2000/3000, the fleet's firepower is now 2000/2000, because the planet can match the fleet (for a total between the two of 4000/5000).

Example #2: The fleet's firepower is 5000/5000, but the planet is still 2000/3000. The planet can only partially match the fleet, so the fleet's new firepower is 7000/8000.

Example #3: The fleet's firepower is 0/2000, and the planet is 1000/1000. The planet's 1000 light firepower counts as 500 heavy for matching the fleet, so the planet has an equivalent of 1500 heavy firepower, boosting the fleet up to 0/3500. An alternate method could be to give the fleet the 1000 light firepower as +1000 light firepower, resulting in the fleet having 1000/3000. I like the first way better though, since it penalizes the fleet for not having some light firepower.

Planet hitpoints would affect fleet hitpoints in a similar way.

Thoughts?

__________________
"It was horrible -- horrible. Like a chicken." - original script for Alien

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by TerraNova: 09.10.2007 17:07.

09.10.2007 17:06 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
Pages (4): « previous 1 [2] 3 4 next » Tree Structure | Board Structure
Jump to:
Post New Thread Post Reply
Cosmic Supremacy Forum » General » Rebalancing the tech-tree

Forum Software: Burning Board 2.3.6, Developed by WoltLab GmbH