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TerraNova Player-Rank: 2 TerraNova is a male
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Another way of stating the rule is "the ships' firepower and armour are doubled, up to an amount equal to the planet's firepower."

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I can't find who posted this, but I think it is a perfect solution: a turret that kills one percent of attacking ships.

This would mean that if you had three on each planet in a system, you could take out 10% of a fleet right there. If each one rounds down, then a efficient fleet of 99 ships would be unaffected. It's only purpose would be to counter the most massive fleets.

The ways to avoid getting hit by it? Smaller fleets of higher level ships would be able to get past, as mentioned earlier, as would fleets filled with cheap, lower-level ship which could function as cannon fodder. This might encourage diversity in strategy such as minor construction planets for smaller ships, corvettes in late game, and a general push away from destroyers/frigates only.

As long as the size and cost of this "piercer" turret was high enough, this would be a balanced change that could add a new interesting dynamic to things.

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I think I would favor Rismagis' suggestion a bit more simply because it is easy and logical to understand. Also it would require only a relatively small programming effort to get this in place.

I only wonder if it is a bad idea to add a new facility (with new art) and a new technology along with it? Or is there are particular reason why you think we should use existing facilities?

Btw, I also like the idea of the Piercer Turret.
09.10.2007 23:51 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
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So if there's less than 100 ships do they do no damage at all? That feels very artificial and gamey. People running around with 99-ship fleets and all. I don't think people would bother with the small ships, they'd just run up your fleet-size inefficiently. And you'd only bother with light ships if you were to go over 100 ships. In order to make them worth it, you'd also need a LOT, other-wise just stick to 99 Cruisers (or 90 Cruisers and 9 troop ships, etc.). Putting 3 on planet might seem great... until you get maulled by 99-ships fleets, in which case they'd be a total waste. And if you're running around with a ton of light ships... well, superfleets are kinda back. They're still great against other fleets anyways, with the given rules.

Also, although Piercer Turrets might discourage superfleets somewhat, they don't really buff defense, unless you make defenses more effective in general anyways (eg, lowball the Piercer cost). Another downside is I don't really feel it makes defensive play any more interesting.

PS. Not that I hate Piercer Turrets or anything, I just don't think they're the "perfect solution". Smile

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by TerraNova: 10.10.2007 01:00.

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whay only talking abuot defence. soon this game will become borring . you will be prepared for war aruod turn 500 or more with stargate and new turets in the galaxy :(
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quote:
Originally posted by TerraNova
I don't think 10% firepower per CDA is enough of a bonus, though. Even at 14 that's a lot of space, and you'll want one at every planet. In fact, combining the function with this facility may not be a good idea *because* you'll want one at every planet.


I don't want to suggest feature, that would be "absolutely required to win the galaxy".
10% additional firepower is for each CDA. It is not so hard to build 5-7 CDA at fleet base. 1-2 CDA can be build right before enemy attack (instead of heavy turrets), so there is no need to build it everywhere.

quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
I only wonder if it is a bad idea to add a new facility (with new art) and a new technology along with it? Or is there are particular reason why you think we should use existing facilities?


From the very beginning you were against any new facilities, so I thought it would be easier in this way. Nothing more.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Rismagi: 10.10.2007 08:50.

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How about this then: Each turret has a critical chance of about 0.2% (upgradeable through advanced tech). This means that EVERY ship has a 0.2 percent chance of dying per turret. With 5 light and 5 heavy, that is 2 percent. That should decrease artificiality.

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Hmm, the idea of the PD-Fleet synergy, though, is to encourage the garrisoning of your systems, to provide more than a speed bump to roaming superfleets. That bonus has to be widespread to be useful, and building 5-7 CDA's really sounds like a one planet per system kind of thing, which isn't enough of a deterrent or challenge for superfleets (taking damage on only one planet per system is no concern really).

Even if you decide to sacrifice 42 space on each planet for a 30% bonus, that's a mere 30%. Only a superfleet-sized garrison would really care about that small a bonus. If you're garrisoning your systems with garrison fleets of, say, 20% of a superfleet, you've simply wasted your ships, since with the 30% it's a mere 27% of a superfleet. Better to merge them with your own superfleet and attack.

For the bonus to be worth it, it *really* has to be big, just so you don't end up throwing your ships away. A small garrison fleet needs to at *least* be doubled in strength, or be utterly useless. So if you want to stick to a proportional system, boost the % considerably, to say 40%. BUT, of course there needs to be a cap to the boost, so superfleets don't get an obscene advantage, but small garrisons get appreciably improved. The cap could simply be the total PD on the planet, so the fleet can't improve by more than the turret power. Or twice the PD, since CDA's would be taking space you could be building turrets on.

Why so high a boost? Because small garrisons *need* that to be relevant, and the CDA's taking up valuable space. Since we're trying to fix a major problem in game behaviour, the solution has to be powerful. My suggestion was roll the PD-fleet synergy into the current PD's, so that no-one would have to *need* it to win, they would already have it. But at 10% per 14-space CDA, I wouldn't even want to use the CDA boosts at all... they just don't seem worth it. The only circumstance when they'd be useful is if you somehow manage to challenge an opponent's superfleet with your own, in your own system, at the right planet. That's rare, and doesn't address the underlying problem of defense.

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10.10.2007 15:56 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by Kazagistar
How about this then: Each turret has a critical chance of about 0.2% (upgradeable through advanced tech). This means that EVERY ship has a 0.2 percent chance of dying per turret. With 5 light and 5 heavy, that is 2 percent. That should decrease artificiality.

Not bad, kinda like it. Maybe make the heavies give a higher %, since they take more 2x the space and 5x the production? Say 0.1 for lights, 0.3 for heavies.

You could modify the % on a per ships basis, depending on whether it was a light or heavy ship. Simply halve the % contribution from non-matching turrets for a given ship.

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How about defense satellites (space turrets?) that are shared by all planets in your system?

Say all planets in the system that are owned by you could join in the production of it, and losing say one planet out of four kills 1/4 of those satellites.

The problem with building PDs is that having them occupying valuable planet space really hurt production/research powers, yet they are totally useless in stopping superfleets. So it would be nice having something that does not take up planet space (but also not adding to planet hitpoint) and is more cost-effective than ships.
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[quote]Originally posted by Kazagistar
I can't find who posted this, but I think it is a perfect solution: a turret that kills one percent of attacking ships.
[quote]

i still think this is the best solution that can be easily implemented. this will remove superfleet

True battleships are still ALMOST USELESS but this turret will make them usefull
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Update Based on recent galaxy

1. PD's have become great. Some planets have PD to take out a 700K bombing fleet

2.Scanning tree is still useless. true shuttles do not work, but the workaround is still a lot simpler and cheaper than scanning tree
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So this thread is long and has many ideas in it. It went from tech tree rebalancing to more of a defensive tactics improvement suggestions thread.

concerning:
quote:

1. PD's have become great. Some planets have PD to take out a 700K bombing fleet


I think however I find myself agreeing with diglis [and probably others] on some level.
This is a war game after all and I think in order to preclude stagnation and the interstellar equivalent of trench warfare one rule really must remain inviolate. It must always be possible to attack a planet with sufficient force that no reasonable amount of planetary defenses alone can offer significant defense. Now I am not concerned with the planet that is ALL PD because it is unlikely to be a significant producer of ships or tech [although the fortress breeder seems an obvious enough tactic to me]. Scanning is a simple enough means to ensure that you skip over these planets in your quest to eradicate an opponent.

I personally feel that the only defense against a superfleet should be your own superfleet. Why for example have facilities that increase your fleet firepower by say 10%? Why not instead simply build 10% more ships? Really I think the only thing needed for a viable defensive strategy is a means to apply your defensive fleet where it is needed... ie stargates.

The idea of an empire wide defensive turret system is really the same. A means of applying defensive firepower where you need it.
Improving PDs overmuch allows the application of extreme levels defensive firepower like a blanket it does not furnish a means of concentrating that firepower.

Balance is about apples to apples... so fight superfleets only with superfleets.

concerning:
quote:

2.Scanning tree is still useless. true shuttles do not work, but the workaround is still a lot simpler and cheaper than scanning tree


I partially agree. The changes are an improvement but me personally... I think the winning strategy went from 16 techs then HOARDS of frigates to 19 techs then HOARDS of frigates. These extra techs... Nano Mech for the AutoFactory... and get Fleet & Planet Scans... but I would get those last [like my red smarties]. The other toys are nice... but meh.

I think I understand the BIGGER probe fleet strategy Tantor refers to as the "workaround" but what makes it great to my mind is that I think the viability of it depends on the circumstance... making it far from a no brainer decision... which is great when one is thinking about balance.

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Arg the digging up of old topics, how am I supposed to read all these posts and pretend I know what I am talking about?

Overall I have no big problems with tech tree. It is beneficial to research stuff always. True I may not build cruisers or battleships, but I still need those techs to get singularity drive.

As far as scans go, I use all of em and a lot. They are pretty cheap, and convenient to use.
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerd
how am I supposed to read all these posts and pretend I know what I am talking about?



ehh don't worry about reading every post (I surely don't)...a lot of times, these threads go off on a tangent. I'm usually the one to blame for that. So who do you all think will be in the Super Bowl? Wink

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quote:
Originally posted by Trantor
2.Scanning tree is still useless. true shuttles do not work, but the workaround is still a lot simpler and cheaper than scanning tree

We could easily increase the number of sub-iterations that are required to survive before one receives a full battle-report. Currently it's 5 (out of 100). Should we double it?

Of course at one point we really have to stop, if someone wants to crash an entire fleet into a planet for scanning purposes, then there is no way we can/should stop it.
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Phantom used a fleet of 12 corvettes

they will rip through the dummy planets i.e 1-2turrets


I used a 250% shielded cruiser.......it scouted 4 planets before hiting a Super fleet killer


i think rather than making these more expensive, we should think about adding something more to the scanning tree or making it cheaper

I think fleet scan and planet scan should be exchanged as you need many more planet scan than fleet scan.
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grr, I just had a huge post and it got deleted.

Ok, In R59, I finished research and I have some comments and improvement suggestions.

Cruisers & Battleships
better but still too slow to be efficient and useful.
Suggestions:
a) increase singularity drive to make battleships & cruisers the equivalent in efficiency to a frigate. So a 73speed frigate doing 2400 bombing, the cruiser or battleship should be around 70 with about 9600 bombing.
b) add a new engine to put with warp shields to make it worth going down to the end. Make it rediculously fast, (80 perhaps) for a battleship with a decent amount of firepower or defence.
c) make the battleships and cruisers have more space to hold engines


Research
It took me 500 turns to finish research and that was with concentrating purely on it. pumping out 5500 per turn.
Its still too slow to make it worth finishing.
Suggestions:
a) lower the % of the final weapons to say 80 each rather than 100 and 140.
b) add a new facility / multiplier which could either double the amount of research the universities and science labs can pump out, remove the wasted science and put it back into science per turn to make it more efficient OR add a facility which would produce 2 science per turn, prolly where advance scanning is, building should use 12 space and cost about 1.5x what universities do.

These should ideally make the research tree able to be finished by turn 350 if someone goes purely for it without being attacked (which is still rare).
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Now that's some insight for once. Still seems a little far fetched to put battleships on par speedwise with frigates. If that be the case, they outta cost alot more proportionately. Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, OH, OH, Oh, I just had an idea Mr. Cotter!! How 'bout some sort of additional cost multiplier to increase the individual attributes of one ship. Say instead of my cruiser doing 40 units a turn, I could pay 50% more for the ship and get 50 units a turn, regardless of technological advancement. Same goes for firepower and shields. In the end, this technique is far less efficient than research, but could help as a stop-gap in some game situations.

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the other thing I realized.
The reason frigates are so useful, ontop of speed, they're cheap, and they're not really affected by planetary defences.

Light turrets at maximum do 1344 light damage each
Heavy turrets do a bit less for light damage.
So a fleet with 100k defence in light ships
would take about 200,000 heavy firepower to take out, since
light turrets are practically useless.

Maybe we should put a more powerful turret to combat light ships which would balance out things and make the frigates a bit less powerful. It would make some people resort to destroyers, cruisers and battleships since they can withstand more damage.
Right now a frigate with 1000 defence can better withstand a planet than its 1700 defence cruiser sibling.
So I suggest either a new turret to combat light ships, or some way to beef up the light turrets with late game research which would possibly triple their firepower. 4000 light per turret would make it worth while to
go down further if you intend to play defensively.
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