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banem Player-Rank: 2 banem is a male
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Imagine that at the start of a galaxy you know exactly how long the game will be? This would add a considerable amount of new tactical and double edged features, every player would have to deal with...
Here are my thoughts:

-You are approaching turn 400 (lets say) and you and your allies are ramming the galaxy, your alliance is by far the strongest. what happens? You keep on killing others, rightfully dividing them among yourselves. Game gets boring, both for you and for your opponents. You (anyone) call for an end. BUT, if you know that game finish is predefined at turn 500, you might be considering quickly taking half of your best friend's systems, rather easily, because they are undefended, yet you are safe from retalitiation, game will end.

-From the start of a game an expirienced player can evaluate his research potentials, making different decisions between attack (go for automated factory research plan) and defence (go for best shield tech r.p.). If game is about to last 1000 turns, its different tactics then if its a 400 turns one.

-Since that many threads were about limiting alliances among strong players, it is worth knowing that limiting game lenght will make them weaker and more vulnerable to sudden betray. Thus making game very interesting to the very end (which is also not the case right now), you never know what the finish will look like; you can just jump in into someone's war and make your position 2 times better in last 10 turns. Or someone can make you miserable, without chance for payback. Hence, you cannot go 100% into attack, knowing that your ally is more and more becoming your foe as game comes to an end. (because he will know your breeding and production systems, because he knows you)

-No more (sorry for saying) rather boring threads (not all, but majority) about game end. a: Let me eat a little more b: END END END a: you lost b: Its pointless, please please erwin end it; and so on.

-Ending game this way really in my deep opinion turns players off this great game. For last 2-3 or more days all that you've been doing is waint for an end to come. You are bored cos everything is decided and then vote to end.

Imagine that marathon race has same lenght, but without finish line? After a while the racers themselves decide who is a winner, mostly when they all are fed up with the race. Its just stupid (no offence to anyone) because they wouldn't know when the time has come to put the last piece of energy, final effort, take the ultimate risk (turn all your citizen into military??!!) to win or improve. All races are by far most exciting at the end! We all watched tour de France? You never know what will happen in last 300 meters! Why take that excitement from spaceciv racers?
09.02.2008 01:34 banem is offline Send an Email to banem Search for Posts by banem Add banem to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
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And one peaceful way to win


when you complete your research tree, you get option to build a wonder which gdoubles your fame and halves everyone else fame and ends the galaxy. When you start building the wonder...everyone in galaxy gets a mail and knows what you are trying.

Will allow for a peaceful victory for the PD builders
09.02.2008 11:32 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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Excellent point there, banem. Fixing the end game situation is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed before we can call the game complete. There are various suggestions for an automated system, most notably TerraNova's suggestion. That together with an in-game voting system would probably fix this problem once and for all.

I also agree with your idea to have a fixed end turn right from the start. That sure would add a tactical edge to the game! So yes, once the game is complete (and we start advertising for it) we want to offer as many variants of the game as possible, and galaxies with fixed game length are definitely on my list.
09.02.2008 11:34 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
neuronurse74 Player-Rank: 1 neuronurse74 is a male
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what about instead of having a definite end turn then when the game gets to a certain turn (say 500) then there is a 1% chance of the game finishing. this could go up by 1% maybe every 5 turns. this would give people a rough guide on how long the game might go on but nothing is definite.
09.02.2008 16:56 neuronurse74 is offline Send an Email to neuronurse74 Search for Posts by neuronurse74 Add neuronurse74 to your Buddy List
uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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well you know erwin i was thinking, everyone has their own little twist that they want to throw into the galaxies(me to for that matter) i think i remember talking about allowing player customized galaxies in the past. perhaps you could make some sort of game design utility(in the future of course Tongue ) and players could pay for the right to make a galaxy the way they want it. just a thought on a way to generate revenue at some point in the future that will only effect those that choose to. you could still have the standard galaxies going so that no one misses out(hopefully). a few easily defined(i think) customizable options...

-starting tech levels
-starting colony ships/scouts/etc...
-starting number of planets
-number of total stars
-ratio of stars to players
-spacing of stars and shape of galaxy
-turn length(this would also be a great way to implement 'prime time' galaxies)
-method of ending the galaxy(fixed turn, terranova's formula, different voting methods, etc...)
-player rank
-private game(i actually think this is a bad idea but i am including it for completeness)
-standard building/ship speed/research options or use the 'speed galaxy' variant or maybe anything inbetween
--the strength of alliances(none at all, whether line-of-sight etc.. can be shared, fixed number of permanent member in an alliance, control of alliance mates ships, the possibilities are endless)
-reputation(rep still gets under a lot of peoples skin)
-'clan' galaxies *pauses to throw-up a little*

as you can see there are a lot of options you can give people without to much work(i think), give you a guiltless source of game revenue, and maybe be able to have players experiment with different ways to play the game. you never know they may find a way that appeals to a lot of people and make the game market itself(even more than it does now). you could probably make the price of creating a galaxy pretty steep, add a new forum area for galaxy creation and players can group together to make the galaxies they want. the more i write the more i like it. comments?

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09.02.2008 17:13 uncountednose is offline Send an Email to uncountednose Search for Posts by uncountednose Add uncountednose to your Buddy List
banem Player-Rank: 2 banem is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by banem
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Man!!!

I love it! It sounds like this is a master plan from the very beginning, to start a forum, let people discuss what they like-don't like, what would they add-throw away, and when it comes to a point that there are millions of suggestions, just offer them to create a galaxy of their own. For a tiny sum of real money, of course.

Like you guys are trying to give us the "operating system" - anyone can create game of his own. Like a program language. If you were really charging that, you are on a very good path to become billioners. Tongue

That would counter EVERY other game on the net, in my opinion ruin it. And options are countless. Emerging variations could not be seen as same game anymore!

GUYS YOU ARE WRITING NEW "WINDOWS".

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by banem: 09.02.2008 17:36.

09.02.2008 17:34 banem is offline Send an Email to banem Search for Posts by banem Add banem to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
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then i presume while signing up I will get 2 options

Join a galaxy --> Free

Host a galaxy --> $xxx

when i click join i will see
Digilis Galaxy
Zoot's Galaxy
UN's galaxy
Erwins Galaxy etc etc
I can see each galaxy specifications and join which one i like

If I click host, I get a set of editable features like size, number of people, turn length and everything listed by UN
and then I can host my galaxy with the features I like

Good Idea. Play for free.....host custom galaxy for $$$

I think I will host the first speed galaxy
09.02.2008 17:46 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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banem- i actually think that creation of a galaxy should cost a considerable sum but multiple people can contribute. otherwise we would likely wind up with tons of user-defined galaxies.

trantor- exactly

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09.02.2008 18:26 uncountednose is offline Send an Email to uncountednose Search for Posts by uncountednose Add uncountednose to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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Totally agree with you guys there, those custom galaxies are a great idea and a fair method to gain revenue... I certainly can live with that Wink When should I quit my job? heheh
09.02.2008 19:28 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
banem Player-Rank: 2 banem is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by banem
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I said tiny just to underline one sum ammout compared to number of people with desire to do so. Of course it cannot be as low as 1$, it wouldn't be good (total number of hosts should be maintained at apx. 2-3% of all players, for this feature to be operative, you still need at least 10 (active) players for a game)

Trantor, well done. Put it in simple language, just for all the beauty to be seen. Marvelous!

Erwin is it possible to rename/copy-paste/whatever this thread, just to gain publicity? I am burning with desire to hear everyone on this subject, and we are more than moved from initial topic, which might appear uninteresting, thus be the reason noone new is showing up?

BTW, just to stay on the ground, is it possible for you to make it?! Could be like alpha and beta game, alpha should be left unchanged, with option for everyone to join for free (thus serving as a commercial for beta), while beta being alowed to join server, enter unique key (provided on a each CD, DvD whatever) and create rules of his own, offering anyone also possesing key to join?

Or 3 steps:
1. Players for free (cannot host or join random hosted games) =0$
2. Encounter players (can join but cannot host random games) =1$ lifetime
3. Director players (can do everything but continue with their lives) =50$ or so.

I assume the rate of (1):(2):(3) would be something like 100:20:1(thus maintaining neccesary balance), but that is a question for experts. Anyway, an idea I think should be taken into consideration.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by banem: 09.02.2008 20:52.

09.02.2008 20:49 banem is offline Send an Email to banem Search for Posts by banem Add banem to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 2
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Custom Galaxies

All users by default are treated as Rank 0 or unranked and can join the unranked galaxies. After getting certain experience or fame they will be able to see 3 different types of galaxies
• Normal Galaxies (Hosted by Erwin)
• Special Galaxies (Hosted by Players)
• Premium Galaxies (Hosted by players)

Any player can join the Normal Galaxy. It will have the same fame based rules as currently. For joining the premium galaxies you will have to be a premium player
You can become a premium player by
• $2 for 1 galaxy
• $20 for 15 galaxy
• $ 5 for 1 month
• $30 for 1 year
* Tentative values esp the value for 1 month is not accurate

Special Galaxies are “special”. You can join them if you satisfy the entry criteria which depends on the game host.

Hosting Galaxies


To host a Galaxy you have to be rank 1. (to prevent newbies from hosting galaxies which are “weird” and then having tons of crib threads of ‘no one is joining’ or ‘I wasted my money to join a unplayable galaxy’)



Premium Galaxy: $20 per galaxy (or $100 for 6 galaxy pack): You will have the ability to select the following features
• Size
• Tech tree
• Number of players
• Start and end conditions
• <more conditions to be added as other players suggest>

&#61664;

Special Galaxy:
$40 per galaxy (or $100 for 3 Galaxy pack): You have all features of Premium galaxy and the following additional features
• Player joining criteria : you can decide who can join, it can be even made open to free players or be a locked galaxy available only on invitation
• Turn length : Yes you can host your own speed galaxy
• <more conditions to be added as other players suggest>
• Scripting??? I am not sure if Erwin will like it about allowing players to make their own mod packs like graphics in the special galaxy. Infact I am not sure if it will work. I am more worried about bugs/ Trojans than doubting the technical skills of my fellow programmers


In the beta stage, you will have the ability to “unsign” a galaxy in first day (till turn 25) and get back your “game joining fees”
The host gets no refund whatsoever even if all the players in his galaxy unsign.
<this feature may need some coding but then in case the host has made an error, only he should pay for it. >

Thus a Premium galaxy with 20 players should bring in $20 as hosting and about $40 as playing fees.

Topics still do be discussed:• Shared ownership of galaxy. $40 will be too high for many players
Hosting model: i.e. We surely do not want to see 30 player hosted galaxy in first month and then due to lack of players the interest rapidly tapers off…. Perhaps a queue system in which you can reserve your slot such that every Friday there are max 3 games starting (one free and 2 player hosted)
Host scripts: does the host get any benefit for creating the galaxy? Can he add his own rules? Buildings? Tweak the numbers say I create a galaxy where the research corruption is capped at 5%. Is that allowed?
Payment model: Paypal? Credit card? The money stays in “player account” and transferred to ERWIN as the player “buys” hosting or joining rights? Or a separate “Space civ” currency which you can buy (or earn say 10 units for winning a galaxy) and then use the same ‘space civ’ currency to buy hosting and joining rights. Thus the minute you pay, money gets transferred to Erwin accounts and he can use it.
Unplayable galaxies: you sign up a galaxy hosted by #$#@$% . it has ticks set for 1 minute. After 2 hours you are leading and the host is wipped out and he leaves the game. Thus the game continues for another 4 hours without break with players dropping out….and as the host is not logged in, the galaxy doesn’t end
09.02.2008 23:13 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Cerrynity Player-Rank: 2
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The one thing I'd like to add onto Trantor's great idea is that all beta testers with a rank get a free custom galaxy per year or something... Please....? Big Grin
10.02.2008 00:54 Cerrynity is offline Search for Posts by Cerrynity Add Cerrynity to your Buddy List
uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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here are my thoughts on what your saying trantor:

Having to pay to join a galaxy- no, joining should always be free. no premium players. like i already said it is not a good idea to make two different classes of players(in my opinion).

Having to be rank 1 to host a galaxy- yes. this seems like a good idea for the reasons you listed.

Cost- the 40 dollars per galaxy is pretty close to what i was thinking. i was thinking somewhere around $50. cost is something that can be hashed out as time goes on.

Shared Ownership- This is why i think we should open a new forum area, that way players can coordinate. it seems to me that a player should be able to design the galaxy in its entirety and then try to market it on the forums to try and get 'start-up' cash. perhaps a partially refundable deposit to have the ability to post it for potential monetary support. pretty little donate to this galaxy button(make sure that a player is warned if they will not be able to join the galaxy due to rank, etc...) and a reserved spot in the galaxy.

Queue for galaxy start-up- seems like a good idea. especially if we figure the start-up price to low and suddenly there is a giant rush of galaxies.

Host getting benefits- do you mean benefits in comparison to the other players in the galaxy? if that is what you mean than no, that strikes me as a bad idea. why would i join a rigged game? This is why i often quit supposedly 'free' online games. There should be no advantage within a galaxy beyond it suiting your playing style.

Scripting- to make this work you would almost have to have access to the code of the game. as soon as public(or even semi-public) access of the code occurs cheats and hacks will soon follow. along with the problems you broughtup i say lets not do that.

Payment- Well paypal does jump out. Direct payement of credit cards could be problematic. I know i have seen the ability to pay with sms via your phone is a common option. does anyone know any others?

Unplayable Galaxies- the scenario you point out should not happen in the model in my mind. the galaxy should have either a set end turn or a set way to end it(terranova's formula, voting, etc...) the host should not be able to end it anytime they want, that is way to open to abuse.

one last thing, i think earning fame should only be possible in normal galaxies. that way people don't earn lots of fame in really strange galaxies and there would always be an active player base playing normal galaxies.

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10.02.2008 02:41 uncountednose is offline Send an Email to uncountednose Search for Posts by uncountednose Add uncountednose to your Buddy List
banem Player-Rank: 2 banem is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by banem
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Good suggestions.

You might consider e-gold, or other e-currency, wire transfer, and also Western Union (but this is more than expensive)

If you do a regular job as a firm which holds a site and gets revenue from players, I see no problem with credit card. Anyway, without firm wire transfer falls in water as well.

Btw, if whole idea turns out able to be performed, and you do it, will there be any benefit for people like us? We contributed something I think. Big Grin
10.02.2008 03:22 banem is offline Send an Email to banem Search for Posts by banem Add banem to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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Thanks for putting down all your thoughts guys, that is really helpful, and I definitely keep a reference to this thread! And yes, once the game should go indeed commercial in any way one day, it goes without saying that those that helped me creating and improving this game, will be rewarded Smile
10.02.2008 10:11 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
jackjack Player-Rank: 2
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well unless I read it wrong, what about a gamble galaxy....

you pay, then whoever wins gets a certain amount of money back as a prize...

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quickstrike Player-Rank: 2 quickstrike is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by jackjack
well unless I read it wrong, what about a gamble galaxy....

you pay, then whoever wins gets a certain amount of money back as a prize...


oh wow...that spikes my interest. Could be quite popular since online poker is popular. Then again, lot of legal issues.

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Cerrynity Player-Rank: 2
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quote:
Originally posted by jackjack
well unless I read it wrong, what about a gamble galaxy....

you pay, then whoever wins gets a certain amount of money back as a prize...


I'm against any real-world gambling/trading... I'd gamble with galaxy fame, but the money itself would give the ENTIRE game a new name in the gamer world, which may mean bad publicity. If people wanted to gamble over the email about the galaxies, I can understand that, but I think that overall turning the game into a gambling match would not be worth it.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Cerrynity: 10.02.2008 20:32.

10.02.2008 19:55 Cerrynity is offline Search for Posts by Cerrynity Add Cerrynity to your Buddy List
banem Player-Rank: 2 banem is a male
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Thread Starter Thread Started by banem
gambling Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I agree. Whole game would change its character then, and really put more players off the game then drive in.

Actually, we weren't talking about that. Its about player's desire to create a galaxy of their own, and enabling them to do so. THAT costs.

Who knows, maybe after a few years, when Spaceciv is so popular, someone really opens gambling site with bets on players. But I doubt creators of this game would thank for such a commercial favor.
10.02.2008 22:10 banem is offline Send an Email to banem Search for Posts by banem Add banem to your Buddy List
jackjack Player-Rank: 2
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what if it is for "good causes" ahem *takes a bit off the top* lol

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10.02.2008 22:36 jackjack is offline Search for Posts by jackjack Add jackjack to your Buddy List
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