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xXxSPARTACUSxXx Player-Rank: 2 xXxSPARTACUSxXx is a male
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The idea is born

I know there are many good things coming ground warfare etc. But the one thing I would like to here is there are plans for after the current updates are bug free, in making realistic trade as well as pirating and blockading a reality.

Realistically adding trade to the game was a major step to realism. But we all know you can't have trade without looting or blockading. I mean we can but just not the same strategy wise with no risk. Anyway I have seen talk of this and agree the idea is a must to talk about and is needed eventually as possible to add the depth to trade that is realistic..

Here is my suggestion.


My Idea is a possibly realistic proposal with as limited amount of c++ coding as possible orientated to the current game play.
I just thought it up today so be easy on me Smile Maybe it's not completely on target or maybe it has holes but if one thing in it makes sense then others may fill in the rest. Many holes I assume but hey it is what it is an idea or the wild side of suggestion.

Future Trade

All planet ship resources mined currently flow to the same unseen pool to the same invisible location and just displayed as how much empire resources are available.
I see no need to change that but since the pool they flow into is the same lets just make that pool your home planet HQ. So your home planet is your resource depot all empire resources flow unseen as now but just make it official that they go to your HQ. Your HQ/trade depot would be
the trading Hub of all foreign trade.

Now that being said However I would not allow anyone's stockpiles to be captioned if there HQ is conquered as it might unbalance the game (although maybe a percentage as a option for realism). Anyway can't remember if you have to choose a new HQ or if it does it for you when you loose your home planet but your resource depot would always be your HQ if your HQ changes so does your Depot.

Now Trade ships.
Just as there is a colony or troop bay there could be a cargo bay to fit shuttles or other classes to carry resources this gives u the ability to design them as you like. Similarly this would make them a one purpose ship like the colony or troop ship and like them you could equip it with some armaments to fit the situation. The cargo space would be able to hold a certain amount. Once built though they are like all ships as good and fast as they are built. It's important first of all to make them a real ship with real attributes I feel for 3 reasons.

1.They being a real ship have real attributes and are able to be attacked and defend themselves, with no additional battle formula's needed. Maybe just a little.

2.There attributes would especially concerning ship speed, reflect realistic trading times at all tech levels. "Trade takes time", no immediate boom!
I just traded with Erwin in 2 secs when he's on the other side of the galaxy and I only have fusion engines. Naturally early on realistically I would have to only trade to close neighbors.

3.They would interact as real ships along with other ships allowing you to add ships to a fleet of trade ships as escorts or like wise for protection.

This would make your trade fleet an asset as a part of your Empires power.

With trade there must be considered that idea of trades power that in simulates as in the old Greek world, that trade rules the world only it's now the galaxy!


Naturally New Features will be needed for a trade ship or fleet bearing one as followed.


Trade situation oriented new commands explained later :

Coding New orders for a load button for a ship or fleet of trade that must be at your HQ to use and load anything.

Coding that Upon selecting load another option appears of which resource or gold to load or to sell or exchange or gold to buy a resource at destination apears.

3rd Coding for a third menu that sets the amount of said whatever.

Also on the buy end a new order to buy and what and how much to buy explained later.


So that being said how would trade work well lets see.

I would say treaties work as designed only in each treaty with someone that's signed is the agreement of how much you would sell or buy with other said person at what price or exchange and once signed is set in stone agreement unless a new treaty is proposed or it is canceled after it expires or is fulfilled. Or canceled before expiring with a rep hit.

Scenario 1 Manually or with admiral if possible

So I agree to buy 800 of whatever from Erwin at this price and we sign the agreement the 800 of whatever are set aside from his pool until I pick them up or the agreement ends for whatever reason comes first ok, well now I grab one of my trade fleets or trade ships with a cargo bay available and fly it to my HQ click the load button, click gold, click the amount as in the amount needed then click ok order it to fly it to Erwin's HQ which is his trade Depot. After arriving at his HQ in this scenario with some needed coding work the transaction would automatically take place and I would automatically purchase up to the amount agreed or the space I have available. I would then need to fly that fleet back to my HQ at which point upon arrival the goods would automatically be added to my pool transaction complete.

Scenario 2 Manually or with a admiral...

Me and Erwin agree on a trade deal, I will trade him amount of 400 of blah for his set amount of 700 of blah.The tricky part of this is I must take 400 of blah to his HQ or he must take 700 of blah to mine whichever he or me trough negotiations, (one of us) must send a fleet fulfilling our end of the deal to complete the transaction. To eliminate crazy mathematics no automatic transaction will happen in this scenario unless I or he sends the full amount of goods in one trip as agreed upon making it realistic as to who the deal benefit's more being motivated to do the dirty work.

Of course in all this Admiral features will have to be adjusted with code to suit possible needs.

I disagree with visible trade routs as it's just unrealistic. Current rules apply. You don't know and can't see where a fleet or ship isheading now without a good scan tech. Also you should only know who is trading with who like you know who is allied with who.
If I am at war with someone and I see fleet heading off to so an so's territory or out into nowhere or away from me or his planets.
I know darn it is a trade fleet and i'm gonna attack it.

On this note pirating becomes a reality. To be realistic in a space fight though there wouldn't be a boarding action so most of a trade fleet attacked would just be destroyed crippling the enemies trade.

Though if a coding solution within means could be found some of those trade ships would most likely surrender in a fight so the victor if coding possible gains control of said ships that surrender and the bounty they carry whether in gold for purchase or goods they carry are in the hands of the victor. You could with code force the victor to use excess military on military ships to man captured trade ships.

Other then that a victor's ships can't carry off cargo as they have no space meaning cargo bays unless trading ships of the attacking side are present but that gets more complicated lol.

Being that the captured ships are alien there could be in place as they would have to fly them to there HQ to redeem captured goods that then make the captured ships automatically scraped after arrival at HQ. I think in a short term the enemy fleet is just destroyed if there is no battle solution formula that can be consistent.

Another possible cool note... Attacking anyone's said fleet trade or ship is a act of war like attacking any fleet or ship unless your already at war. But if possible with coding it would be sweet if cloaked ships could attack any fleet without there owner being disclosed. That would make pirating a reality.

As far as blockades, understandably just put attack fleets outside of a enemy systems or in likely trade routs or directions leading to others. In all this makes escorts in a trade fleet very important.


Free Trade the Trade empire aspect

As for a new aspect to the game along with this, to bring further depth and complete the trade addition is the option of free trade.
I propose free market ability so I can put up a set amount of whatever to be deducted from my pool of that resource and set aside for all to see that I am willing to sell and at what price a resource to anyone I am not at war with.

As in scenario 1 without the treaty.

So if your low on that resource you have the option treaty or not to come to my port/HQ/Depot and buy up to the amount available I made known with set price and made available and buy up to that amount that you can carry or afford.
This on the other hand would need code so you could either with a admiral tell it to go there and buy x amount of y or manually click the ship or fleet upon arrival and select buy then select what and amount.

All in all this needs to be as uncomplicated as possible but there needs to be realism in trade.

This my random idea for trade, take what you will if anything, tear it down or throw it out as I would rather spit into the wind and have it splash on my face if it then blow's in the right direction then to send a sailing logy the wrong way.

The passionate dreamer and thinker the,

X

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chrisadamley Player-Rank: 3
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AHHHHHH!!....the return of the DEADLY encyclopedia posts!!!!!

my eyes are bleeding

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Lmao sry dude, Well it was as sort as I thought I could make it to explain the proposal may I suggest "tear refresh" from allergan in the future reading of my posts as I do get carried away.

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you need a / in your end tag in your sig....

its definitely a wasp's nest: I trade with you and my ally lays in wait to steal the cargo back.

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Those are nice ideas, but as JackJack mentions could possibly be abused as well. However, my biggest concern with "trade routes" is the increased amount of micromanagement that might be required. You don't trade for fun, but most likely because you NEED those resource, and usually you need it fast. Now you have to build ships first, assign a crew, create treaties, assign admirals etc just to get that resource...

On the other hand it sounds very appealing (at least to me) to recreate this sort of Caribbean Trading and Pirating atmosphere back in the 17th century, in a modern space setting. Just imagine you build this one huge cargo ship filled to the brim with expensive resources, and send it to the other side of the galaxy, hopefully returning with a huge profit... Pirates could intercept that ship etc... it all looks great in my fantasy, but it might be quite difficult to get it right.

Just the pure length of your post indicates that there are implications left and right, and additions (in admirals and rules) that are required. Also, some people might like the aspect of trading, and some don't. Then again, there will be these custom galaxies, where you decide what feature should be activated and to what degree... However, SpaceCiv is and always will be a war-game most and foremost.

Having said all that, the one question that needs to be answered before we can even THINK of extending the resource idea is, how exactly will resources get used in the game?
18.09.2008 12:34 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by jackjack
you need a / in your end tag in your sig....

its definitely a wasp's nest: I trade with you and my ally lays in wait to steal the cargo back.


I see your point and on that note there would need to be a counter weight in place for the cloaked ship pirate scheme that if you have a trade agreement with someone or are allied with them the game does not allow you to attack said partner with your cloaked ships as that would make all trading futile and render this idea if you added cloaked non nationality a bust.

x

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Well in all the formula is the answer, counter wights to balance the game would be a must. Rep and other things would have to come in to play and be well thought out and Simple not confusing make a system of any kind reality.

A few counters I now see that would be needed to balance a few things.

A small Rep gain or some other reward for completing a trade agreement from start to finish with someone or simple just trading free market wise, would be needed as a motivator to trade with even the smallest or weakest players.

Maybe the reward is slightly bigger for trading with smaller Empires. Or the reward is nothing at all or negative for trading with monster size empires or empires with horrible rep's.

So you can just ignore Irwin's hopeless empire and buy from me as I sell more for less in a treaty or free trade. But you may gain nothing from what you buy from me but the goods cause of my size or not want to associate with me at all if my rep is nasty.

Then again if the little guy is asking for the sky on a small stock of blah it would not be worth the reward of whatever nature.

In this the counter to balance power with realism is a economical system that incorporates rep and size with price.
I know I know confusing but if you really think at it there is a way some day to simplify it like the set system as being documented as current rules in the manual are as the way things work to be understood as all do currently.

When I first started to play for instance I didn't read about reps and attacked a smaller neighbor who wasn't yet inactive, big mistake.

A large rep hit ensued what the @$#%, I had to go to school in the manual to understand what happened and why.

Erwin your right the game just can't be allowed to sacrifice fun and ease of use for depth that can be unworthy if it's to complex.
On the other hand this game in it's current stage is not for everyone nor will it ever be it is for those who are fascinated with Strategy and building a mighty empire, designing unstoppable fleets through research. Ya you definitely need a deep eye hole of desire and brain splatter to have a chance in this one.

But hey Ill tell you what I am still confused half the time setting up admirals myself so ease of use aside if you don't like this kind of game it don't matter how easy it is to play.

X

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OK well this is my view as what resources could if used apply to as a whole.

This addition of them again is a turning point and if we continue to use them they as I know Erwin knows would be a function that integrates into the overall strategy, framework and playability of the game.
Solutions of how I know are being worked on. I have a some idea's that might help resources integrate completely and everyone should comment if they have idea's or thoughts because somehow we have to arrive at that solution.
Of course we simple have to play through on the current system for Erwin to see the fact's from all the variables and get allot of feed back on the use of resources and all the bugs from beginning to late game scenario's.

All right to the guts of it. Currently resources are now things that are needed to build a ship. They are named ship resources and you need x and y and z for building ships that need x,y and z components more or less of this depends on ship class and tech level. A solid start to just hammer out that kind of formula for one.

I would build on that by saying if you want resources to be apart of the game as a whole then they must apply to everything you build.
Looking at things now there are some pathways. Right now each resource while needed for each ship component, already has some simulates if applied to planet construction with some common purpose.

Like there is a resource for and attributed to I assume weapons, shields, ship Hulls and bridges. Hulls or bridge components could be linked to whats needed to build early or advance planets structures. Ship weapon components to a planet battery, ship shield component to planet shields.

We could rename Ship Resources to just Resources.

You could give the different resources names attributed for simple understanding of what it is. Naming them would need a sense of the tech tree not that they apply to research but to the game progress wise although you see them all at the start you will have a sense of them after a game has been played like we are about to do knowing then which one's are most important to have early or late, what the use of each one is and which are the hardest to come by.
O course crazy any cool futuristic names for resources would be cool especially if they grow on you to be logically in name linked to what that resource is used for in looking at like we think of wood or plastic etc.
A hint name for one I think would be something to do with crystals associated with shielding. Anyway blah...

New resource uses

So early on the resource I would use for most things which I think is the early hull or bridge component resource 1 could be called "Iron Ore" or "Steel" maybe the other most often used is 3 "bio Matter" or chemicals whatever ship component might be if any. Some material would only be for ships others could have a dual purpose.

I think to add the depth of this addition use of resources as a whole for Planet construction would be needed for full integration.
With them in the big picture some things would need to be done to put a emphasis on them in definition.

I'm sure you have pondered this in formula idea's also but just as you need x and y for ship components you could also need x or y for buildings. So maybe a Farm just needs bio Matter to build and a little Iron ore also. A barracks might just need Iron, a battery might need Iron ore and the resource used to build that kind weapon used with it's related weapon component's tech. Tech levels just as with ship components would relate to building types as for whats needed and how much.

The bigger a ship and armaments in the current formula makes for different resources needed and more or less of others. Buildings could be the same. That could help balance some things that I can't just up build lvl6 farm or factory with out having enough of a certain source or maybe a level 4 i need a different type in the ingredients for levels after that.

Well it's all just idea's hope something helps I can only imagine the amount of trial and air in coding it must have taken for the current situation in thinking of the shot in dark unforeseen problems every change causes.

That's enough for a while as my posts are getting too over suggestive I feel.

A final note I would settle as I feel most would to keep resources even if just for ships it's pretty cool to have planets with resources strategic wise now if it can be balenced. But if that is the case I would recommended eliminating trade with others for now as we have the global market. At least until there is a be better way. Or just keep it as it is cause crazy or not I like the new twist this way or that.

Couch time,

X

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This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by xXxSPARTACUSxXx: 19.09.2008 02:08.

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quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
However, my biggest concern with "trade routes" is the increased amount of micromanagement that might be required. You don't trade for fun, but most likely because you NEED those resource, and usually you need it fast. Now you have to build ships first, assign a crew, create treaties, assign admirals etc just to get that resource...

On the other hand it sounds very appealing (at least to me) to recreate this sort of Caribbean Trading and Pirating atmosphere back in the 17th century, in a modern space setting. Just imagine you build this one huge cargo ship filled to the brim with expensive resources, and send it to the other side of the galaxy, hopefully returning with a huge profit... Pirates could intercept that ship etc... it all looks great in my fantasy, but it might be quite difficult to get it right.
how exactly will resources get used in the game?


Forgot a few things! Crimeny!

I see your point with Micromanagement, admirals would be a biggy in a free market with little oversight after initial setup to buy x from anyone for below y.
But as for trade treaties, well each treaty you would have to possible change admiral settings.

It's all allot to think of to implant and get right to have it actually work.

But as I thought of it I felt the same way from the old world trade monopolies of the Mediterranean to the Caribbean pirates to star wars 1 the movie style blockades wow there would be new ways to view power.
lol well well put the fantasy back on the shelf maybe some day.

No doubt this game must retain it's first and foremost biggest appeal. Addictive in your face 3d multi-player Space warfare. There are just so many avenues you could go in to realism. With the games foundation, 3D galaxy engine and all the definition with Civilization building in mind.

Any way GL to everyone in XP 1

I'm really going now....I think I drank to much Big K cola tonight. Shocked

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Blockades and piracy can be implemented without trade routes.
For example, one fleet near enemy planet (10 units or so) can prevent 50% of transport ships to go out - so decreasing amount of resources received from this planet. More ships near the same planet (but in different location) make blockade more efficient. But Empires cant attack Interstellar Merchant Guild (that keep and transport all resources where it needed) to take confiscated resources for themselves (will resources go back or into merchants pockets does not matter).
Here goes the pirates, because they don't care about the merchants Smile and all confiscated resources go to the pirates owner. Also pirates can attack planet and take some resources from its owner stock.
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Some good points there Spartacus and Rismagi!
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Just a couple things on trade and Piracy:

First off trade should be easy. All you should have to do is build a trade ship and tell it where to go. From there everything else is automatic. It continues to trade back and forth without any management at all.

Trade will only stop if there is war, ship is destroyed, diplomatic reasons.

You should be able to build trade ships that are fast and hard to destroy, but still possible.

As far as blockades go its should be simple as well. If you are at war with someone and you attack there planets and destroy all defenses without a capture you will then blockade it until you have troops ships there. The blockade will prevent them from rushing anything being built. It will stop all resources from being transported to the planet. Basically it is cut off from the rest of your worlds.

I think some neat things could come from that. If you are able to intercept trade ships you should have a chance of stealing there cargo. What percentage that would be I don't know. If the trade ship is destroyed then maybe you could get credits or resources from that. Piracy ships should be special oops type of ships, meaning that even though they attack ships, war is not needed. The ships could be from anyone. Every time one of your trade ships attack you have a chance of knowing who did it, but its not guaranteed that you will know.

This could bring in a whole new aspect to the game with spying as well. No having spying in the game would be very cool. Spying could get you blueprints that would add say 25% to your over all research. Spying could be used to destroy buildings. You could use it to frame other empires and cause wars. You could use it to sabotage ships. The list could go on for a long time.

Most of these things are probably not going to happen anytime soon, but they would be fun to see at some point.
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Until the black market isnt ours, the transportation of the res. isnt our problem. I may explain this like bank accounts in all the planets. This means immediate trading in every point of the gal.

Building in the barricaded planet - there are small amount of reserves using it to build something. It isnt much, but an barricaded planet should not last for long.

I like the idea of barricading planets, but it will be screwing buildings, loyalty or military. Not the resource shipping.

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wouldnt it be easier to imiplement trade ships that as they go from port to port you get a small wealth increase (goes to your account only once it gets to the next planet, doesnt give it a +x per turn). this way you can pirate and blockade easier without screwing people over and not letting them get resources to defend themselves. even if it would make the game more realistic... its a game... it should be fun not evil to the soul.
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I like the idea of being able to set up trade routes and the ability to pirate those routes. However I don't like the idea of having to build trade ships. I think it is cumbersome and adds to micromanagement.

To me, trade routes should only be able to give you extra revenues in the way of money. Furthermore, once such a route is created using diplomacy, you shouldn't have to put any more time into it. Both factions will recieve extra credits as a result of trade and that's it. Inter-faction trade (for recources and money) is already implemented and thus should not go through these trade routes.

Now other factions can pirate those routes be physicaly blocking it with fleets. Using their scans they can find out where to position themselves. The pirates will gather the extra revenue created by both trading factions, but nothing more. So, both trading factions won't lose anything more than more than created by the trade route.

The possible addition of trading ports on your planets would also boost your extra revenue created by trade.
09.09.2009 11:57 bsaerens is offline Send an Email to bsaerens Search for Posts by bsaerens Add bsaerens to your Buddy List
stabby Player-Rank: 2 stabby is a male
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Money really isnt that important

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09.09.2009 17:47 stabby is offline Send an Email to stabby Homepage of stabby Search for Posts by stabby Add stabby to your Buddy List
Meatbucket Player-Rank: 2
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I don't like the idea of real trade ships, depots and hqs, it's too complicated and will clutter the map with non attack ships. Too much micromanagement. This game is about war, not anno 1404.

An alternative would be to build generic abstract trade ships that go into a trade pool.

Performing trade actions use ships from the pool and do not return to the pool until the trade has complete or until a resources/per/turn treaty has ended. At least that's manageable and still interesting trade rule. That's as complicated as I would like to see it, but I don't even think this is necessary.

I do like the idea of using resources for more than just building ships. I.E building buildings and scans. I found it odd that this was not the case when I first started playing the game.

It would also be a neat idea to have civ like resources (fruit, rice, horses, iron, bronze, ivory ect..), possession of this resource gives you empire wide bonuses to happiness, growth, production, weapon firepower ect... Since this is a space game these things would most likely be called artifacts. You could probably find one or two per system and there could be a whole slew of different types. Perhaps you could also trade this artifact in a treaty, if you had more than one or did not require it.

Blockading planets so no resources/money flow into the general pool is a good idea, as long as symbol pops up in the planet notifying you that this is occurring.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Meatbucket: 21.09.2009 19:24.

21.09.2009 19:21 Meatbucket is offline Send an Email to Meatbucket Search for Posts by Meatbucket Add Meatbucket to your Buddy List
stabby Player-Rank: 2 stabby is a male
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Registration Date: 12.12.2007
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quote:
Originally posted by Meatbucket
I don't like the idea of real trade ships, depots and hqs, it's too complicated and will clutter the map with non attack ships. Too much micromanagement. This game is about war, not anno 1404.


YES!

wait a minute, you can do war in anno 1404 right???

Anyway, it will clutter ze mapz

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21.09.2009 20:15 stabby is offline Send an Email to stabby Homepage of stabby Search for Posts by stabby Add stabby to your Buddy List
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