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The Phantom Player-Rank: 4 The Phantom is a male
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Eliminating hyperspace defense receiver energy split Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Hyperspace recievers should receive the full energy potential of every transmitter in range without competing with each other for that same energy.

The only factor on how much energy it receives should be its distance from the transmitters in question. Therefore it a planet is too far from any transmitters it won't receive any or close to any energy.

Therefore you have to strategically place your transmitters in your empire to best defend the most planets.

The receivers since not split should take up more space prefereably 30 instead of the current 14, also perhaps make the reciever more expensive, perhaps perhaps not.

This way the defense system is easier to maintain than what it is currently and therefore you don't have to be online 24/7 to switch around defenses, and convieniently allows defenses to be consistent for offensive scans.

Therefore systems that are further from transmitters are weaker defended and ones which are closer better defended.

Now the defense at PD level 8 and Hyperspace level 4, with a lot of transmitters should make most of a players core worlds almost impenetrable by most advanced fleets later in the game.

That way, the offense's plan of attack has to be to energy scan your empire in order to find where the transmitter worlds are located and plan to take those out first. These transmitter worlds cannot receive energy and therefore are weaker(only normal PD level Cool planetary defense or defended by a fleet. So if the offense is able to take out these few planets he takes down the hyperspace defense on all planets and then they become easy for him. Big reward. Otherwise the defender has a chance to force a conflict on any of hit transmitter worlds with a fleet, and stand a chance at protecting his core planets.

Otherwise you have the same old end game scenario of going around in circles with huge super fleets endlessly taking over each other's planets without any real conflict or feeling threatened, and therefore boring.

This therefore allows a defender to take a stand, and the offense to see where the defender has fleets, and how best to take down the transmitter worlds of his enemy in order to reap the benefits of all his planets.

This is how the system was originally intended to function, and isn't currently effective because of how each receiver connected to a transmitter shares/splits its energy to both planets.

Current system:
1 transmitter world = 100K power
2 receiver worlds connected = 50K power each prior to distance decay
3 receiver worlds connected = 33.3K power each prior to distance decay

What is should be:
1 transmitter world = 100K power
1 to infinite worlds connected = 100K power prior to distance decay

Allow distance decay to to its job, not receiver splitting. This is the best way to get hyperspace defense to work from its original intention.
16.07.2009 04:18 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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I agree with this idea.

Planetary Defenses are supposed to function even without babysitting, that is the purpose of defenses. The philosophy behind it is that you cannot ever be on 24/7 and your opponent can attack at any time. You can easily fit offensive operations around your time table and even if you cannot, there will always be admirals to do the job for you. With defenses, it is much trickier because it is unlikely that your opponent will want to fit his offensives around your time table and thus you are as likely to be attacked offline as online, if not more.

Hyperspace Defenses are hard to manage as it is. They were first conceived to provide additional strength to planetary defenses in late games and to create an additional layer of strategy by introducing choke-point planets. However, instead, Hyperspace defenses degenerated into something that is barely usable and it does not take a genius to figure out that this feature did not successfully achieve either of its two objectives.

This small change will bring the idea closer to what it was designed to do in the beginning: To enhance late game defenses and to enrich the strategic aspect of the game.

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I really like this idea. It sounds so familiar Wink

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16.07.2009 09:41 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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IT sounds like it's a bit overpowered to me, but I could get behind a change like this.

Also, Phantom, it's great to see a post that devotes more attention to the problem than the solution. There's far too many posts that provide solutions to problems which are apparently so obvious that we don't even need to be told what they are.
16.07.2009 16:12 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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Thanks Nongolf. Yes the reciever worlds would be overpowered persay. However the transmitter worlds would not be since they would have just normal PD level 8 and/or need to be defended by a fleet. In this type of defense, you can't look at the reciever worlds and think 10 million defense that is overpowered. You have to look at the choke points. Since the choke points are not overpowered the whole system isn't. Since if you take down the easier choke points(which late game need a fleet defense or else it is a runnover), then there is 0 energy for the entire empire, and therefore the huge defense there was on all planets then gets reduced back down to PD level 8, and makes it easy for the pickings again.

Just as the offense you'd have to best plan the ways of taking out the choke points. Maybe some system scans to see where there is a fleet. Also if the defense doesn't defend the transmitter worlds with a fleet then the transmitter planets are a very easy target, and the whole system becomes irrelevant to the offense anyways. Only difference is you changed which planets you need to take out first. That is all.

As you see without fleet defense this system isn't any more powerful than regular PD level 8 planets. This just allows the defense to use a fleet as a defense option when before that really wasn't an option.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 16.07.2009 18:15.

16.07.2009 17:29 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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Also, I would like to propose that we increase the upkeep costs of hyperspace transmitters and receivers by a factor of 10. The upkeep cost of the facilities should compare to the upkeep cost of a fleet large enough to crack it.

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I found it:

quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
Hyperspace transmitters could send out energy in all directions equally, so adding new receivers would not decrease the energy gained from existing receivers. You wouldn’t need to assign where the energy goes, it would be sent everywhere

And I remembered something else too. This would allow you to send hyperspace energy to your allies without losing any yourself.

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16.07.2009 18:19 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
I found it:

quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
Hyperspace transmitters could send out energy in all directions equally, so adding new receivers would not decrease the energy gained from existing receivers. You wouldn’t need to assign where the energy goes, it would be sent everywhere

And I remembered something else too. This would allow you to send hyperspace energy to your allies without losing any yourself.


Now, that would be imbalanced. Make hyperspace transmitters non-tradable or it would be impossible to destroy a large enough alliance.

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In a normal galaxy it’s tricky. It’s not so much that it’s unbalanced in terms of the mechanics, but rather that you enemies planets might be protected by someone that is also your ally. In team galaxies however, you would not have that problem so I think it’s a valid team galaxy option.

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16.07.2009 18:35 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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True it would be a problem, only thing is the distance factor would still play into it. But yeah I can see that being a bit of a problem.

As for the upkeep. Yeah it should increase, however I think times 10 is too much, since you also need a sizeable fleet to defend with as well and do offense and you don't want to have 100% banking planets.

I think it needs to be increased, but just not by the factor of 10, otherwise I think it would become quite unmanageable to make a fleet as well as have this defense, and this defense needs a sizeable fleet in order to function.
17.07.2009 09:54 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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so the basic gist is that the transmitters should provide their defense to all receivers in range all of the time? i would be of the opinion that something needs to be done to mitigate that and just increasing upkeep does not strike me as enough. power reduction seems like the only reasonable alternative.

edit: allied sharing of hyperspace energy=bad

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by uncountednose: 17.07.2009 12:27.

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This seems like a HUGE boost in the potential effectiveness of this system.

I mean...essentially, your turning one transmitter into what would normally be multiple ones.

If the only reason for doing this is so you can have defense when your not online, then i say its not worth doing it. Thats just a small difference compared to whats really happening.

I thought the system was strong how it is (phantom proved that)....no need to boost it more. This isnt the way to solve not being online IMO

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by chrisadamley: 17.07.2009 15:37.

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There's no point in abandoning a good idea just because some numbers need tweaking. If it’s too powerful the energy output could be reduced by a percentage.

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17.07.2009 16:07 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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I just can't help adding my thoughts here.

It seems to me that we're constantly working on making invulnerable systems. there has to be a weakness. No empire is invulnerable.

Don't tell me about transmitter planets. As has been pointed out, a few command centers and engineless ships will thwart that weakness.

The purpose of the current HS system is to make it vulnerable. Yes, having to be online all the time does suck. But I really think that goes for any scenario here.

What I really enjoy, and I realize I may be alone here, is using deception and tactics to destroy my enemies. Making them think I'm attacking something I'm not so my real target is less defended. I would really like to see less of a number race and more of a strategic plan.

I know how absolutely stupid this sounds, most of you are probably thinking tactics are of course used. I don't know how much detail I should really give on this subject, and I odn't have but a few minutes right now to do it.

My point is, the only real strategy is racing through research so you can race through ship production faster. That's how I feel. if anyone wants, I'd be more than happy to further in-depth when I have time.

Sorry if I'm a bit off-topic here.
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I think the hyperspace facilities sees too little use generally. Whether it's because they too weak or difficult to work with I don't know. I think they're both.

@Arcs: I'd like to hear the details. Though I support changes to Hyperspace, you struck a chord with me here:

quote:
What I really enjoy, and I realize I may be alone here, is using deception and tactics to destroy my enemies. Making them think I'm attacking something I'm not so my real target is less defended. I would really like to see less of a number race and more of a strategic plan.
[...]
My point is, the only real strategy is racing through research so you can race through ship production faster.
17.07.2009 17:00 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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Again, I know this doesn't exactly apply to the discussion, except in a very broad fashion. Also, I'm at lunch and this post may be more rushed than I would like.

So far, the only strategy I've ever seen is things like building order and research order. These are fine, and of course necessary. But these aren't the only means to victory. I've never seen anyone use combat tactics at all, or anything I consider combat tactics anyhow. The limit to combat tactics I've seen is deciding which planet to attack.

When I go to war, the first thing I do is look at the empire lay-out. I find which planets are used for what purpose. Most people use breeder transports to move troops from the breeder planets to shipyards. The thing is, most people rely on troop defenses for these and that makes them highly vulnerable targets. I'll do things such as putting a small fleet in orbit of a breeder just large enough to repel any single ships or PD that can be built in one turn. This effectively shuts the planet down. The problem is, it does not produce score. A lot of the tactics I use are very effective, but generally speaking do not produce score, or at least a lost less than the general confrontation does. Since my ships are always going to be weaker than my opposition, I avoid combat whenever possible.

I also like to sneak ships into the core worlds and set them up to destory supply lines. I've noticed that most players just arbitrarily send all the newly produced ships to the main fleet without regard to anything other than getting them there. Anytime I see this, I try to get a small fleet in there to take out those supply lines as well. Most people just appear to race to who can build up the most the fastest, then smash them into each other. I laugh every time I see this, and it happens often.

When I leave my planets (if I'm not cloaked, or think I'm being watch) I will head to a completely different target until I'm out of scanner range, then change course. This keeps people from knowing my real destination. I often use decoy fleets to hide my real targets, or hide my real fleet strength.

I'm not going to reveal every tactic I use, but in general, they're real combat tactics. None of these really produce score, since I'm not clashing head on with my super-powerful battle-ships. As a result, my score is usually much lower than anyone else, or much lower comparatively.

I mentioned before in another post that, while I work on all kinds of Excel projects relating to the game I don't actually use them. The truth to this is that I don't WANT to use them. I don't want to play the way i see everyone else play. yes, it's effective, but rather boring.

I hope I'm making myself clear here, but somehow I get the feeling that I'm not. Please try not to take issue with exact phrasing, and instead focus on the over-all point I'm attempting to make.
17.07.2009 18:45 Arcady is offline Send an Email to Arcady Search for Posts by Arcady Add Arcady to your Buddy List
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I agree with you. Especially the bit about building the most the fastest and then bashing it into things. The kill ratio of a super-fleet is just too effective to ignore (something I’m trying to nudge in a more strategic direction with my outnumbered thread). I’d like to see the effectiveness of super-fleets taper off so it becomes more useful to split the fleet and resume truly strategic and tactical skirmishes. I’d also like to see attrition become a viable option (and not just choking their credits). Hopefully hyperspace will become a strong source of strategic cat-and-mouse games. Eventually it would be nice if there were more positional play like home-space advantages and strategic location in space like route embargos. Possibly wormholes and space stations could be part of that, but that’s way down the line. Unfortunately for your misdirection ploys to work, the other player needs to see you do it. To make things like that more effective, you could have an automatic fleet plotting system, so if you lose track of an enemy fleet you see a ‘ghost fleet’ that continues along the fleet’s predicted course (which might be completely wrong). I’ve gone way off-topic now but I hope it’s been interesting. Wink

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17.07.2009 19:12 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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To head off a likely question, how this applies tot he discussion. The changed being proposed would elliminate my play style. It simply won't be possible anymore. I will have to play the same race to research game that everyone else plays. I'll be forced to contend with the super-fleets instead of finding better avenues for attack.

I would like to hear Trislans and Nongolfs opinions on how effective I can be with my style, since they've both been on the receiveing end.

Edit: Name fix

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Well... it would be effective to take out the troop transports that go to and from breeder planets… but in a lot of cases the transport will just jump instantly from one planet to another in a single turn to you can't intercept it Crying Gee, wouldn’t it be great if the turns were smaller so things like that didn’t happen Wink

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17.07.2009 19:24 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
Well... it would be effective to take out the troop transports that go to and from breeder planets… but in a lot of cases the transport will just jump instantly from one planet to another in a single turn to you can't intercept it Crying Gee, wouldn’t it be great if the turns were smaller so things like that didn’t happen Wink


Forgive me for continuing to stray...

That, and ships that are faster than scan range will actually show up when they pass by...
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