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stabby Player-Rank: 2 stabby is a male
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Anyway, coming back to this thread

Planetary space should be used in the calculation.


A bigger planet is much harder to defend since the invaders might land anywhere...

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bigger planet is harder to take, since merely landing isnt enough. you need to clear the land of defenders who could be...anywhere.

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quote:
Originally posted by inerz
bigger planet is harder to take, since merely landing isnt enough. you need to clear the land of defenders who could be...anywhere.


The defender has to deploy all of his troops on the planet evenly, the attacker can land in 1 or multiple locations at the same time. So the attacker isnt going to have a hard time killing off 1 soldier per every square kilometer. Having said this that does sound rather surreal.

So a more likely scenario:

Cities! Every 5 or so occupied planet space is going to count for 1 city. Then the defender wouldnt have to deploy its troops over the whole planet but just the largest cities, (would be more logical).

This would mean almost every ground battle would be multi-turn.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by stabby: 29.09.2009 17:33.

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Ok, so more realistic, but how is it more fun? What does it bring to the game in way of choices?
29.09.2009 18:10 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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NOTHING!!!
It mainly brings realism to the game

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Being just a rookie, I feel somewhat unqualified to speak out. But, in the 3 games I've played out of the sandbox so far, the current 'landslide victory' mechanic of troop combat seems to unreasonably favor the larger group. And usually this means the attacker.

I'm sure the math on this is different with the civ talents, but as it stands now, it seems pointless to have any defending troops at all. A moderate defense of 20 troops has practially no purpose: Someone else's monster attack fleet of 200 is going to wipe them out with zero casualties.

Bottom line, I like the above suggestions of a slider bar, or even better in favor of keeping it simple: your troops autotarget 40% of the number of your troops' force size in enemies. In other words, if you have 20 troops, they would target and mostly kill 8 enemies.

I believe this change would increase the number of casualties on the winning side, requiring stronger supply lines from distant attacking players. That would add a small amount of realism as well: defending military are often used to delay an enemies' attacks against you.
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quote:
Originally posted by stabby
Planetary space should be used in the calculation.

A bigger planet is much harder to defend since the invaders might land anywhere...

My aim in this was to address an inefficient targeting formula and suggest a new one. If what I've said generally accepted then I'm happy to discuss ground combat in general as a larger topic, but perhaps that should have it's own thread.

Currently the fact that the defending side can hide in fortresses and bumkers suggests that is is the invaders job to seek out and destroy the defenders centres of power. In that case it can be assumed that the defenders only need to defend key sites instead of every inch of land, therefore the size of the planet would have little significance. That's not to say that it's not something that should be explored, just that it's a bit out of scope for this thread. Complications to ground combat should add gameplay value and depth. Military classes / a closer link between ship combat and ground combat...? Actually I just had another idea which deserves it's own thread.

quote:
Originally posted by dedzy
Being just a rookie, I feel somewhat unqualified to speak out. But, in the 3 games I've played out of the sandbox so far, the current 'landslide victory' mechanic of troop combat seems to unreasonably favor the larger group. And usually this means the attacker.

That is true in many aspects of the game and I agree with you. If you consider a situation where the larger force has an equal kill / loss ratio, the larger force still has an advantage. The fact that the larger force has a far better kill / loss ratio beans that a larger force is far harder to stop, there is little to no attrition, and the balance of power shifts quicky in their favour. I would prefer a situation where the overwhelming advantage of a larger side is mitigated:

The larger side may have difficulties where the line of fire is blocked by their own ships / troops.
The larger side may suffer from friendly fire.
The smaller side has a great number of targets and a miss may result in a secondary hit.
The larger side has fewer targets and a reduced chance of a secondary hit.

Since you already seem to have a good apreciation of the mechanics, this might interesdt you: Always Outnumbered?

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You know... if ground combat were to be redone I think it would be best to just use the age old well debated [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester's_laws] lanchester equations [/URL].

Even better link here

Basically... Units in cover are subject to Linear attrition [because they cannot be directly targetted]
Units not in cover are subject to Square attrition.

better trained units have a higher lethality co-efficient and wars over large land area will likely reduce the lethality of both sides.

I mean, people a whole lot smarter than us have already worked out pretty accurate models [from emprical evidence] to predict combat losses in controlled circumstances... why not use their work?

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Gedrin: 05.10.2009 16:35.

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Those could be a good guide for the sort dynamic that we want to end up with. The problem with using those equations directly is that they take a top-down approach from predicting an outcome. Since every troops in CS has it's own rank, position (in bunker or not), etc, the battle needs to be simulated from the bottom up on a troop by troop basis. CS would need troop-level adjustments to achieve the desired results.

Interestingly enough, the equations demonstrate that CS is very much a square attrition game, with ship battles being almost at cubic attrition. In games, if things go too far beyond linear attrition then the balance of power will quickly break in one direction.

Ideally everything would be shifted back a little towards linear attrition. That matches Lanchester equations for unaimed fire and as you say, troop with cover.

Another aspect is that pre-firearms everything was pretty much the linear law because in general 1 troop could only effectively fight 1 troop (or the equivalent). With firearms range and accurate targeting things progress towards the square law (which makes it less interesting), but theoretically for very large conflicts it 'should' revert back to a linear law because of line of sight. Fortunately there are no real-world examples of conflicts that large, but there's no reason that a 2000 troop army in CS can't represent those sorts of numbers.

In fact, fixed defender situations (like battles vs PD and troops with cover) might benefit from inverse square attrition, because it would help reconcile the massive differences between effectiveness at different points in the game (per planet, and per tech level, per player). It's plausible because of the number of targets presented to the enemy by the larger side.

That's not to say that the Lanchester equations shouldn't be used, it's just that the top-down attrition ideal should be based on the best possible gameplay first and realism second.

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05.10.2009 18:03 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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Back to the original subject: The specifics of how many enemy targets are chosen by the formula.

I made this troop calculator:
http://www.andrewleconte.co.uk/WIP/troopcalc2.html

it has two targeting modes (at the bottom) the default is the current formula used (or close to it) and the other one is my suggestion.

If you mess around with it you should see that my formula tends to end the battle more quickly, but the smaller side usually gets a few more kills.

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07.10.2009 14:49 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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Played around with it for a few minutes. Your algorithm definitely seems to produce fewer 'power rangers', and I like the larger body count on the attacker's side.

So you just whipped up that calculator, huh? Impressive. Shocked
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Cool

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It was built neatly

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It does produce nice results indeed! I will add this to the todo list, in order to get it implemented for an eventual XP galaxy.
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Oooooooh, an XP CS galaxy Big Grin

FYI: The in the flash troop calc, my suggested formula actually targets a number of troops based on 20%-60% of the shooters numbers.

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Well just to talk about realism I don't understand why heavy/light weapons are not used to attack cities on the planet as well. although I understand that would make bombing weapons just any weapon but that is probably how it would turn out in reality.

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quote:
Originally posted by leeth
Well just to talk about realism I don't understand why heavy/light weapons are not used to attack cities on the planet as well. although I understand that would make bombing weapons just any weapon but that is probably how it would turn out in reality.


Light firepower could do 50% damage to heavy, and 25% damage to PD.
Heavy firepower could do 50% damage to light, and 50% damage to PD.

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Meh

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quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
quote:
Originally posted by leeth
Well just to talk about realism I don't understand why heavy/light weapons are not used to attack cities on the planet as well. although I understand that would make bombing weapons just any weapon but that is probably how it would turn out in reality.


Light firepower could do 50% damage to heavy, and 25% damage to PD.
Heavy firepower could do 50% damage to light, and 50% damage to PD.


Would it be useful?
Yes (for the attacker).

Would it be realistic?
Probably.

Would it make the game more strategic?
No, it would be less strategic.

Would it make the game better?
quote:
Originally posted by stabby
Meh


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Ta-Da..

Accuracy of simulations is not guaranteed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxRVqwh...dit?usp=sharing

=====
I even tested it against 3 scenarios in replays..

Arigato galaxy
bartosz1983 vs chrisadamley - Turn 300 (223-1)
.. I repeated my simulation 5 times.. had a mean of 421 attacking troops remaining, 9.38 st.dev.. actual battle was 430 attacking troops remaining.. which is about 0.96 st.dev above average

Arigato galaxy
Gedrin vs Scurvyllama - Turn 296 (412-5)
.. I repeated my simulation 5 times.. had a mean of 79.6 attacking troops remaining, 3.61 st.dev.. actual battle was 77 attacking troops remaining.. which is about -0.72 st.dev below average

Walnut galaxy
bytehunter vs tingling - Turn 367 (220-2)
.. I repeated my simulation 5 times.. had a mean of 284.2 attacking troops remaining, 13.96 st.dev.. actual battle was 286 attacking troops remaining.. which is about 0.13 st.dev above average.. (after one turn)

.. in the same battle.. defending side.. had a mean of 18.8 defending troops remaining, 6.62 st.dev.. actual battle was 21 defending troops remaining.. which is about 0.33 st.dev above average.. (after one turn)
=====

Details

Arigato replay

Turn 300 battle at 223-1

Rising Sun (10% trait) : 95 r3 + 370 r4 = 465 troops attacking
Xel'Naga (20% trait) : 28 r4 + 3 fortresses = 28 troops defending
**Yes I counted each ship lol.. my simulator treats a veteran rank 0 and a newbie rank 0 as the same..

Actual:
430 attackers remaining (35 killed in combat)
0 defenders remaining (28 killed in combat)

My simulation
1st attempt
436 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

2nd attempt
412 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

3rd attempt
415 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

4th attempt
414 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

5th attempt
428 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

-----

Arigato (Turn 296)

Battle at 412-5

Varmint Collective (attacking) : 5 r1, 36 r2, 49 r3, 5 r6 = 95 total
(14% trait)

TheCritters (defending) : 30 r5, no forts = 30 total
(21% trait)

Actual:
77 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining


1st attempt
81 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

2nd attempt
86 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

3rd attempt
78 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

4th attempt
76 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

5th attempt
77 attackers remaining
0 defenders remaining

-----

Walnut galaxy

220-2 (Turn 367)

Planet of Apes (Attacking) : 402 r3, 121 r4 = 523 troops
(0% trait)

Cash You Nuts (Defending): 15 r1, 33 r2, 113 r3, 133 r4 = 294 troops
(10% trait)

Actual:
286 attackers remaining
21 defenders remaining

My simulation: (about 21 seconds to simulate each lol)
1st attempt
293 attackers remaining
19 defenders remaining

2nd attempt
294 attackers remaining
16 defenders remaining

3rd attempt
260 attackers remaining
27 defenders remaining

4th attempt
277 attackers remaining
24 defenders remaining

5th attempt
297 attackers remaining
8 defenders remaining

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by tingling: 27.08.2014 16:29.

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