Hi all,
I'm not trying to butt in on matters that do not concern me here, I would like to address instead the general scoring system: I believe the way this game is being played is direcly affected by the way the current scoring system works. Would you call someone a jerk if they were winning in Monopoly and didn't quit before everyone else was elliminated? Of course not, it is expected that the game continue until all competing players are destroyed. Some people play this game like Monopoly, and some people want to play this game differently.
The difference here is that this game stretches out over several weeks, and it is no fun to play a game for several weeks when you know in the end you will get brutalized by a Juggernaut that you cannot stop. So I suggest that we quit name calling here and instead propose a different scoring system that will elliminate the motivation for drawing out a game that clearly has been decided some time ago.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by dedzy: 08.01.2010 06:50.
This is all a bit too much for me. Beeing insulted by Nongolf the way he did, and get ingamemessages that if i take all planets of a player is like rape! or hitting the head of some who is allready on the ground are things i do not want to here. If this is whats happens to you for just beeing good and winning, i will choose a different game. As much as i see when i read through the pages i did not insult anyone, i apologized several times, so i dont get it what i did wrong.
I played sevreral galaxies now where there was no real figting cause a strategic alliance decided all at the very beginning. In all that galaxies, and even in TG V as many planets as possible were grapped by the winning players to improve score. And everyone excepted whithout comment. This time i wanted to fight Phantom cause i knew he was good and it was fun. And i loved that my former ally attacked me instead of keeping peace till the end as in the other galaxies. And i loved to see my big fleets fly and take out the remaing enemy planets. Is that a crime?
I got to think about it but i guess ths was it for me in CS.
Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,274
Location: Vienna, Austria
Well, this is a perfect example of community-dynamics happening in online games. It just shows that it is impossible to please all the people all of the time, and some people even getting pissed off at each other and totally forgetting that this is a game.
I kinda understand both sides (except for the insulting bits), but I can not offer a solution. I can fiddle with scoring systems, galaxy-fame, end-turns settings, reputation system, etc. until the cows come home, but there will always be games/galaxies where some people feel they want to go on, and others that this should have stopped a long time ago.
And then all it takes is one harmless looking comment (at least in my eyes), to spark the anger of others - and here we are...
Powers, I understand why you come to this conclusion, and probably the effects described above are amplified in this game because of the structure and userbase-size of this game: it's easy to stick out as the strong guy, which in return attracts some negative attention - the top guy is always the "bad guy", and they are being accused of getting a kick out of beating the small guys (maybe sometimes rightfully, who knows).
I only know that you have the exact same effects in other online games too - if you stick out as the big strong guy/alliance, you are the bad guy/alliance. In a way that is part of the multiplayer "culture" - you might even go as far as saying, in a way it's a mirror of our society...
While I largely agree with you Erwin, I don't think it's entirely accurate. Winners aren't bad guys by definition, but they have a narrower margin of error before they become bad guys.
Whether a winner (in games, life and everywhere else) is popular depends not on how they got to win, or by how much they win, but on how they carry themselves. It stands to reason that if they strut around being arrogant about it, they wont get much recognition for their skill, as focus is now on what arseholes they are.
Now please understand that I'm not saying Powers or anyone in particular is an arsehole, just that it's very easy to become one when you win (anything).
@Powers: I hope you stay. From what I gather you're a good player, and I think it would be a shame to lose one of those. Like I said earlier, I have nothing against you per see and certainly wouldn't like that you left, but I have to react when I see someone introducing a mindset that we've been largely spared so far.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Nongolf: 08.01.2010 11:16.
Since I am still enjoying the game, I am glad Powers/Ewoks spun it out!!
He cancelled an alliance with me to make the game last longer and acquire more fame points. This strikes me as being a clever application of the rules and perfectly legit.
Remember guys, this is only a game and is not real life.
I get more irritated with people who quit the game when they realise they will not feature on the leaderboard. But I do not feel the need to abuse them. Nor even the people who take a place at the table and don't play.
Can I repeat - this is a custom galaxy which actually makes CS a better game. We should be congratulating the Phantom.
Registration Date: 25.06.2007
Posts: 642
Location: Inside your mind? Or in your heart?
RE: Spinning out the game.
Originally, I just wanted to calm the waters of this rather flamy thread. But as nobody seems to get it in their head that it might be a better idea to let those flames die rather than spouting their individual wisdom, I'll now add my own perspective on the underlying issue after all:
I think the comparison with monopoly was a very good one: nobody would blame anyone for trying to eliminate any resistance there.
the fact that CS takes longer to play does not change anything in my opinion. You commit your time regardless of whether you will be eliminated or not. Only difference is, the earlier you are eliminated the less time you invest. Would that make you aspire to be eliminated as soon as possible? No. So the whole time argument is somewhat moot in my opinion. Besides, Powers invested lots of his time, too, to get into the position he now holds. Why should he be denied to reap the rewards of his investment?
As for good winner etc.: actually, CS is the first game ever where I hear people demanding for "good winners". Usually, the issue are "good losers", i.e., people not whining when they are beaten.
Generally, people play a game to win. Winning is either determined by a totally unambiguous rule (as in "last man standing") or, as is the case with CS, there are multiple possible interpretations: first rank, maximum score etc. However, usually we associate victory with a condition which cannot be reverted or topped. If a soccer team wins 2:1, it is not perceived as quite the convincing victory as a 3:0 would. So naturally players try to maximize - and because this is a game they have all the right in the world to do so at all cost.
This is a game. Games do not have morals or ethics. Games only have rules. Those rules are like the laws of physics governing the universe and as such cannot be circumvented. In real life, we tend to stick to rules that are not physically absolute simply because it would be too easy to damage another person to an existential degree.
In a game you cannot damage any of your opponents existentially - you can damage them only within the sandbox of the game. The damage is virtual. So there is no need for any morals or ethics.
And that is yet totally leaving aside the question of enforcability of any such morals if one wanted to introduce them.
So in my opinion Powers or Phantom or whoever have all the right in the world to do whatever they can come up with in order to maximize their score as long as it does not breach the rules laid down by Erwin.
In my opinion we do not experience a problem of a "bad winner" here, but, if any, the problem of a bad loser and another person trying to apply morals where morals have no place.
In my opinion it is utterly sad and frustrating if a good player is punished for his success by peer pressure, taking it so far as to call him names or comparing his in-game actions with real-life tragedies like rape.
But I know that this my post will now prompt endless reactions all denying that a game is nothing more than a game, all trying to explain why the winner of a game should follow some contrived code of honors (as long as the author of that code of morals does not happen to be the winner himself). And I also know there will be no reconciliation as there never is when people write in forums because it gives them the vent they cannot have in real life: to stick to their guns, no matter what.
So my only advice for Powers is to not let himself be bullied into leaving this game by completely irrational argumentation. There is a rather easy way to continue playing SC without any further such discussions: just name your civ else each time you play and never divulge your identity in a forum thread. People will bitch about your civ if you win - because that particular habit seems hard to get rid of -, but they won't know it's you. As far as I recall, that was one of two reasons why the ability to rename your civ has been introduced in the first place.
Cheers,
Azazel
PS: A simple aid from Erwin's side to avoid future such discussions would be to change galaxies to a "Last-Man-Standing" model. People could still agree to end it early, they would still not lose the score from their research and battles etc., so they still would get some fame. But the whole expectation towards the winning player or alliance to show mercy at some point would be taken away.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by azazel: 08.01.2010 21:00.
Thing is Azazel people could still be known their identity by playing style. For example my identity is usually known in the first 100 turns, due to my score. People just presume I am first at that point, if I am playing.
As for Powers I see nothing wrong as well. I lost in this galaxy, and I never once took it badly. I put up a fight and he just put up a better one. I learned from my lost and will change my tactics next time, it is always an evolving process.
I guess welcome to my world Powers... I think after I won 4 in a row, or was it when I had a military alliance in a speed round with Quickstrike, then after the term was over since he had no form of defense, I took him out. Then people called me a backstabber or whatnot, when it was within the confines of the game to do what I did. I've had tons of people combine against me, if anything it is just a motivation to continue on for me. Sometimes I win against the mob, sometimes I don't.
I guess it is nice to at least share the feeling I get with someone else for once. Although I think even then I/we are still respected in our own manner as a tough opponent. I have never insulted anyone I don't think after all, neither did Powers.
However changing your name won't do much, it will for the beginning, but people will know your identity by your style of play, which is nothing you can really change, because your style works.
Registration Date: 25.06.2007
Posts: 642
Location: Inside your mind? Or in your heart?
actually, in your case, Phantom, the phenomenon of people almost automatically ganging up once they suspect who you are is probably the greatest implicit compliment you could ever get for your success: you play so well that it is widely known in CS' player base that unless people gang up on you *soon*, you will just wipe them out one by one.
and I want to re-iterate: winning should never be something players are scolded for.
I have never scolded powers for winning. (god I'm *SO* glad I didn't play in this galaxy. I would have been knee-deep in accusations of being a poor loser by now).
I thought I made it clear enough when I said:
quote:
Now there's a lot of ways you could have explained how it is your god-given right (or at least Erwin-given) to finish the game and grab as many planets as you possibly can (and I would agree with all of them), but when you put it this way, you quite naturally turn into a jerk.
I take odds not with the fact that he's winning, but with the way he carries that victory.
As for whether morals and ethics have a place in gaming is irrelevant for all practical purposes, since games are played by humans, and humans are ethical beings, some even moral.
Registration Date: 07.07.2009
Posts: 14
Location: Vienna, Austria
dear fellow players!
I really enjoyed this galaxy very much. the settings were great!i had lots of fun fighting London Lad, as well as trying to keep a balanced economy and diplomatic network. Congratz LL for fighting back, after beeing almost wiped out!!
Unfortunately i went skiing and when i came back i saw London Lad and Wee taking over many of my most beloved planets
)
Lesson learned: "if you go on vaccation, DO take your laptop with you" *lol*
It's sad to see harsh comments in this thread, which is completely unnecessary.
Registration Date: 29.03.2009
Posts: 197
Location: San Antonio, Texas
quote:
Originally posted by azazel
actually, in your case, Phantom, the phenomenon of people almost automatically ganging up once they suspect who you are is probably the greatest implicit compliment you could ever get for your success: you play so well that it is widely known in CS' player base that unless people gang up on you *soon*, you will just wipe them out one by one.
and I want to re-iterate: winning should never be something players are scolded for.
Azazel there is this playtype common in MMO called griefing. It is when someone does anything they can to ruin the gameplay of another person. That is essentially how i see Ewoks. He hasn't tried to eliminate me at all. Merely keep me around, watch any fleet i build, and then destroy it whenever i attempt to use it. While i am only 10% the score and have less than 10% of the planets.. I'm sorry but i find that tactic personally offensive. Playing that way is even less necessary than insults, which i feel i have YET to do (ii haven't even begun to insult, merely describe actions).
Sorry but that is being a poor winner. His rewards for a win are guaranteed, now he is only effecting the rewards of those who have survived to this point.
Registration Date: 29.03.2009
Posts: 197
Location: San Antonio, Texas
quote:
Originally posted by lalala987
dear fellow players!
I really enjoyed this galaxy very much. the settings were great!i had lots of fun fighting London Lad, as well as trying to keep a balanced economy and diplomatic network. Congratz LL for fighting back, after beeing almost wiped out!!
Unfortunately i went skiing and when i came back i saw London Lad and Wee taking over many of my most beloved planets
)
Lesson learned: "if you go on vaccation, DO take your laptop with you" *lol*
It's sad to see harsh comments in this thread, which is completely unnecessary.
The Yeah Yeah Yeahs
You went skiiing and weren't even playing. And will likely end up rewarded with more points than London or myself. Sad.
Originally posted by azazel
actually, in your case, Phantom, the phenomenon of people almost automatically ganging up once they suspect who you are is probably the greatest implicit compliment you could ever get for your success: you play so well that it is widely known in CS' player base that unless people gang up on you *soon*, you will just wipe them out one by one.
and I want to re-iterate: winning should never be something players are scolded for.
Azazel there is this playtype common in MMO called griefing. It is when someone does anything they can to ruin the gameplay of another person. That is essentially how i see Ewoks. He hasn't tried to eliminate me at all. Merely keep me around, watch any fleet i build, and then destroy it whenever i attempt to use it. While i am only 10% the score and have less than 10% of the planets.. I'm sorry but i find that tactic personally offensive. Playing that way is even less necessary than insults, which i feel i have YET to do (ii haven't even begun to insult, merely describe actions).
Sorry but that is being a poor winner. His rewards for a win are guaranteed, now he is only effecting the rewards of those who have survived to this point.
It is now time for you Alarik, to stop the whining. And you should start to tell the whole story. Why dont you mention that you have been flying around my planets with an 90% cloaked fleet bioboming them all into the ground, killling hundreds of troops and not watching your rep because you just wanted to get me down? And as soon as your ally was down and i got your fleet you started to spam me per mail and here in the forum that i am now no longer allowed to attack you or esle i am a criminal? You are the lousiest loser i have ever met in this game.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Powers: 09.01.2010 23:28.
09.01.2010 20:18
kickthecat75
Assigns Gov Schwarzenegger to all Planets
Registration Date: 08.03.2008
Posts: 763
Location: Yorktown, Va
wow... powers just insulted somone i have never seen him do that. Can you just stop get over it and admitt no matter how much you cry and complain it not gonna change anything. and common the times i played this i have never gone above 9th i never complained about the people above me.
I have been thinking about this and I have realised I have been very immoral.
I have conquered planets without consulting the populations. I have deliberately set traps for weaker troops while making cowardly evacuations when outnumbered. I have turned on people who did me no harm. I have relentlessly driven enemies to extinction and forced "regime change" on planets. I am personally responsible for megadeaths and maybe gigadeaths.
Compared to these atrocities complaining about someone's playing style seems trivial.
My only excuse is that I thought it was all a game.
I had a clash of interests with Ewoks (Powers) in-game, so i understand the sentiments of some, but it's a game!
I was even bugging him with a lot of messages (in-game) to get my way, which i didnt, but it doesnt belong here in the forum.
He has every right to do as he pleases, being total anihilation or just killing off ships. If he doesnt erase you, be happy, you still get score!
If he does, it's a war game, that's the point.
I left London Lad alone, but i am now completly erasing Devitalize since he is the only one i can attack atm, or does anyone suggests i should leave him alone just because he survived till now?
And blaming him for this galaxy continued running is ridiculus, since he is free to vote, again as he pleases, and it's not only his vote that counts.
Obviously more ppl didnt vote to end it before, if i understand voting system. Erwin?
__________________
quote:
Originally posted by inerz
sometimes i think outside the box, but not because im original. no. simply because i sometimes forget where the box is.
Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,274
Location: Vienna, Austria
quote:
Originally posted by Branko
And blaming him for this galaxy continued running is ridiculus, since he is free to vote, again as he pleases, and it's not only his vote that counts.
Obviously more ppl didnt vote to end it before, if i understand voting system. Erwin?
At this point (turn 669) there are still 3 active players that have not voted to end the galaxy. So yes, it's safe to say that he is not the only one that has not voted to end the galaxy. Obviously I could go back in the logs to turn 600 and see how the situation was like there - it's possible that at that point even more players did not vote to end the galaxy.
Either way, the automatic code called the galaxy at turn 600. It might have done so earlier, but I have a min threshold of turn 600 before a galaxy is called.
Eric, Branko: I would like to repeat that I don't give a shit whether he bio-bombed the lot of you, whether he picked off one ship at a time or how many people he turned on.
He can do all that and more for all I care, but if I have anything to say about it, he can't be a prick about it too.
I think this problem really stems from people have gotten used to come in here and end the game prematurely when the winner is clear. Erwin simply tweaks a few numbers and the game is over.
Now when someone puts down his foot and says 'No, I want to play for as long as I possibly can', tempers flare and accusations fly.
I'd recommend Erwin that he doesn't end galaxies prematurely, even if everyone agrees. While I think that games are meant to be fun for all participants, I think any player's right to play out the game by the rules take priority (not being forced by 'public opinion' to agree to end the gal early, when in fact he wants to keep going).
I did never biobomb anything, that was Alarik. I turned on nobody, in fact MY ally was talked into attacking me by Alarik, poor thing they lost. I killed 4 people in this game that were not incative. Alarik, Phantom, Krunk and Dittinger who attacked me. The other three i have been at war since before turn 100.
I have been allied with both Eric and Branko, so please dont mix up all the things. That was maybe one of the causes of this entire situation. Uninvolved people that dont know the background trying to be superimportant and tell their opinion on matters that dont concern them.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Powers: 10.01.2010 15:48.
![Erwin [CS] is a male](images/male.gif "Erwin [CS] is a male")
RE: Spinning out the game.
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