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uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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In the past I have been a defender of scans but I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that they do not have enough value to justify researching them until the very end. I propose lowering research cost/improving value.

  1. Fleet/Route/Military Scans
    -Combine them- Individually these scans do not provide much more information than observation can, together they can be a potent force.
    -Give more information- It has been stated in the past that this scan does not provide much more information than slamming a shuttle in. I will go a step further and say it doesnt provide as much. With slamming a shuttle in you can extrapolate the actual ship-design because it tells you several things that scans do not:
    ---number of each ship design
    ---firepower of each ship design
    ---hitpoints(plus shields) of each ship design
    ---relative experience
    -Give it range and duration- 20-30 units with a 3 turn duration and have the scan area move with scanned fleet/ship
  2. Planetary scans
    -Add duration
    -Provide military scan(the expanded one) for ships in orbit
  3. System scans
    -add more duration and have it range out from the system for a good amount right now a cloaked scout(which actually costs less!!!!) is more effective than a system scan
    -provide military scans for all ships/fleets
  4. technology scan is pretty good as is
  5. add empire scan(as suggested here by licho)


Lower the tech-difficulty factor of this whole branch and correspondingly increase the rest of the tree so that the overall amount of research remains the same. Since you are distributing it more or less evenly the difference in each individual tech would be minimal.

Some may feel this is to extreme, i have only recently come to this point of view. Both the science lab and military academy are down this branch of the tree but i just don't feel they are worth it. The major benefit of scans is that you can perform them on non-hostile empires. unfortunately, since 50% of the time they are detected this can be seen as an aggressive act precipitating a war you may not be ready for.

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quickstrike Player-Rank: 2 quickstrike is a male
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Well there is actually one feature of the military scan that I definitely like and that slamming-a-shuttle-into-a-fleet would be hard to extract, and that is speed of the fleet. If you were to slam a shuttle, you would have to 'reverse engineer' all the ships in that fleet (cumbersome task if the fleet is diverse) in order to deduce the speed of the fleet.

I do like the points you suggest. Perhaps also planetary scans are included in system scans? I would also like technology scans to show the net science points that will be earned for the next turn as well as the total points needed to earn the current tech. It would give me an idea of how rapidly the person is researching.

*consults wiki todo to see if some of these points have already been suggested*

For empire scans, I would like to see financial information too, i.e. current wealth, income earned next turn, and perhaps corruption.

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Gedrin Player-Rank: 3 Gedrin is a male
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Law of cosines.

I had fogotten, I was using it on you very frequently... do you recall that time you ended up 1-2 units away from my ship... you didn't think that was luck did you? Wink

but at any rate, if I do not feel like reverse engineering the ship [or cannot due to tech] I measure the distance to the fleet from 2 fixed points. Calculate the angles.

Next turn do the same.

Then given the distances from one of those points over 2 turns and the angle between those vectors... calculate the unknown side and, well... ok I am a real math geek, I know, I know...

But I agree, appart from tech scans, I fail to see the usefullness in them. Shuttles are much better info for the cost.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gedrin
do you recall that time you ended up 1-2 units away from my ship... you didn't think that was luck did you? Wink


If you are referring to Turn 367, then yes, that was luck, considering that the fleet was cloaked and you weren't able to detect it.

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Nope... that one was luck.

There were a few others though IIRC.

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Ok, I've been thinking about your method, and I'm assuming you get some sort of tetrahedron. But there is one angle I can't get. I made a diagram. Smile

http://www.picapallooza.com/photo/img/40...ahedron.svg.png

*laughs at how far off this thread is going*

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jaredsalmons Player-Rank: 2
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Man, I have got to put some more thought into this game if I ever meet you two in a galaxy.
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Maybe limit information gained from shuttle attack? As it was destroyed before repost was transmited. Player just recieve report like: "Connection with your ships lost the battle".

Somth like this:
Chance to transmit battle report = 1000*( number_of_your_ships^2 / number_of_enemy_ships )

So, to investigate enemy fleet of 160 frigates with 100% posibility 4 scouts is required.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Rismagi: 08.06.2007 13:31.

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Thread Starter Thread Started by uncountednose
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that is an interesting idea rismagi. I think the chances would have to be a lot lower though. 4 unarmed shuttles cost around 400-500. One military scan is 1600. I also think basing it on firepower would work better.

Making it where scout ships sent no/partial information back most/all of the time would change the dynamics in such a way as to make scans more attractive. System scan is still inferior(in most cases) to a cloaked scout though.

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So I went back to my spreadsheet and had to figured out what I actually did since I am really bad at making notes. It then occured to me that my spreadsheet was actually calculating the interception point given that speed of the ship was known. To get the speed of the ship/fleet you only need to check the distance to it's target. Make a note of the target and distance, do this as late as possible in case the player changes target and if the target does not change, next turn again check the distance to target.

However

To calculate the speed of a ship you could use 3 fixed points in space A, B, C that formed a plane far enough away from the ship that it would not cross it [simplifying assumption 1]. The distances a, b, c [note case] are assigned to the lengths of the opposite sides of the triangle ABC
Calculate the co-ordinates of these points as follows:
Point A defined as (0,0,0)
Point B defined as (b,0,0)
Point C defined as (m,n,0) calculated using cosine law in a manner your diagram indicates you understand.

Then given the distances as, bs, cs which are distances from A, B, C to a point S1 defined as (x,y,z) [ie the ship/fleet in question]

form a system of 3 equations with 3 unknowns.
1: as^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2
2: bs^2 = (x-b)^2 + y^2 +z^2
3: cs^2 = (x-m)^2 + (y-n)^2 + z^2

Solve for x, y, z get 2 solutions. Ignore the solution with -ve z value due to simplifying assumption 1 above. Please feel free to check my math. I'm not typing all this scribble on my page... just a quick note though... I expanded out 2 and 3 and sub'd in 1 to 2 to get x etc...

Do this again next turn to derive S2
Calculate distance S1 to S2 == speed of the fleet.
This way the opposing player can jig all they want

Having said all that though I still prefer reverse engineering if I have the tech so that I can set up the battle calculator correctly.

At this point maybe we should either move it to off topic or create a suggestion that ship/fleet speeds should always be displayed to take the advantage away from people who do way too much math.

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Idea: System scans have no limited time (or a long one, like 50 turns) but drain 50-100 money each turn. They can be canceled in case of money deficiency.

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quote:
Originally posted by Kazagistar
Idea: System scans have no limited time (or a long one, like 50 turns) but drain 50-100 money each turn. They can be canceled in case of money deficiency.


Well you'd be just as well off sending in a scout and it would be chaper and could be moved to other systems.

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Rismagi Player-Rank: 3 Rismagi is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by uncountednose
I think the chances would have to be a lot lower though. 4 unarmed shuttles cost around 400-500. One military scan is 1600.


Add cost of the ship's crew (200-400 = 1 crew). And upkeep costs.

quote:
Originally posted by uncountednose
I also think basing it on firepower would work better.


I dont think that great firepower can help in anti-spy mission. Formula based on the ships numbers would encourage players to make anty-spy shield (like 50 shuttles for 50 battleships)... probably.


Well... adding range of ships scanners make sense:

"SUM(scanner_range)" instead "number_of_ships"

And last thing - owner of the planet, where battle occurred must recieve battle report at any case (including battles between 2nd and 3th player).

My view on scanners in this thread already.
09.06.2007 08:28 Rismagi is offline Send an Email to Rismagi Search for Posts by Rismagi Add Rismagi to your Buddy List
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