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The Phantom Player-Rank: 4 The Phantom is a male
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I know some people have complained on the following issues:
1) Later in the game you cannot have a chance of putting together a planetary defense good enough to contest against a fleet.

2)Some people find the bottom of the tree not worth the effort of research points for the improvments you get.

3)People don't really use scans or finish the scan research column entirely.

To aid in all these areas, I have come up with a system which adds some new strategy to the game, and makes all 3 of the above issues solved.

Add the following items to Space Civ:
Subspace Turret: Biggest turret the universe has ever known. Can take out massive fleets, but is expensive to build and takes a lot of planetary space.

Research required: Subspace Controller
Light Firepower: 500x
Heavy Firepower: 4000x
Shielding: 50x
Base defense: 30000
Planet space: 200 units
Build cost: 10000(increases by total # in entire empire)

As you can see this thing would be massive on the planet, and at a huge building cost! Though with Subspace researched, it would be 24000/260000/0 firepower with 255000 defense, and that wouldn't include the added defense a few more shield facilities would do. Or once you finish the research branch and have something along the lines of 24000/400000/0 firepower with 325000 defense.

Now the beauty of this turret, is how it can be used with the following items which come later in the tree.

Hyperspace Transmitter: Able to transmit subspace energy through hyperspace in a manageable form. Transmits Subspace turret energy(light and heavy firepower and shield power can be sent through space instantaneously, not base defense, only energy)

Previous building required: Subspace Turret
Research required: Hyperspace Controller

Planet Space: 50 units
Build Cost: 2000(increases by total # in entire empire)

Hyperspace Receiver Turret: Shielded turret able to do sizeable damage, and able to receive energy from Hyperspace Transmitters to be used to amplify its own energy in order to defend a planet.

Research Required: Hyperspace Controller
Light firepower: 15x
Heavy firepower: 100x
Shielding: 30x
Base defense: 15000
Planet Space: 25 units
Build cost: 1000 units(goes up normally)

Example of how having Gaussian Shield and Particle cannon researched, with 2 Subspace Turrets in your empire, each having a Hyperspace Transmitter to send their energy, and having 2 Hyperspace Receiver Turrets on the planet being attacked would work:

# of Subspace Turrets with Hyperspace Transmitters have their firepower and shielding added together:
So the foloowing is received from Hyperspace receiver:
2 * 24000 = 48000 light firepower
2 * 260000 = 520000 heavy firepower
1500% shielding

This energy is received, (having 2 receivers doesn't do anything to the energy sent only, adds on to what is on the planet itself) and is added to the rest of this planets defense, which is 2 Hyperspace Receiver Turrets:
2 * 720 + 48000 = 49440 light firepower
2 * 6500 + 520000 = 533000 heavy firepower
(2 * 450% + 1500% = 2400% * (base: 2 * 15000) + 30000 = 750000 defense

As you can see this is a huge defense, but it requires lots of research, build costs for the subspace turrets is not low, especially for 2 of them(which pretty much take out most of a planets space)... plus people at turn 500 to 700 or so would have enough firepower to compare with this kind of situation if it every happened.

Note: Hyperspace Receiver Turrets cannot be built on a planet which already has a Subspace Turret, (meaning planets with Subspace turrets can't receive energy from other subspace turrets) This makes these planets weaker spots which if taken can collapse the defensive grid of an empire(suggest to guard these planets with ships later in the game, since this makes planets with Subspace Turrets the primary target for offensive strategies in this part of the game)

Wormhole Amplifier: Amplifies universal hyperspace signal by creating a wormhole through hyperspace(another universe, another set of laws)

Previous buildings required: Hyperspace Transmitter and Hyperspace Receiver Turret
Research required: Artificial Wormholes
Amplifies universal energy by: 1.5 x (number of amplifiers in empire)
Base defense: 20000
Planet Space: 100 units
Build Cost: 5000 units(increases by total # in entire empire)

This is quite simple, receives total signal from Subspace Turrets you have and amplifies that signal by 1.5 * (number of amplifiers) then sends that energy to the planet which needs defending with an amplifier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
As you have seen above some of these defensive options may improve the defensive side a lot more than it probably should for the offense we have now, but that is because I anticipated these suggestions for improving the offense:

1) Solving problem with Destroyer/Cruiser/Battleship upgrade progress not being as great as previous ship upgrades.

This problem is caused because the space added each time is less and less of a % upgrade than earlier versions. This is why I suggest changing the space each ship has to the following amounts.

Shuttle: 120
Corvette: 210 (1.75x improvment)
Frigate: 400 (1.9x improvment)
Destroyer: 760 (1.9x improvment)
Cruiser: 1330 (1.75 improvment)
Battleship: 2000 (1.5 improvment)

Don't change any other figures on them, I'd say, and the system would be fine and bigger armies could be made in order to compete with the increased defenses above.

Also add the following ship:
Devastator: Using magnetic monopoles we have learned to manipulate mass itself using magnetic energy. This has enabled us to create the biggest ship known to man at an incredible light weight(between Frigate and Destroyer in weight)(weight affects speed needed to push it)

Class: Light ship(yeah you can cloak this baby)
Base defense: 4000 units
Space: 2500 units
Research: Magnetic Monopoles

Note: This ship is "artificially lightened", therefore it has the weakness of being suseptible to both light and heavy firepower(meaning both firepowers work at 100% against this "light" class ship.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Now finally to make the scans worth doing, and researching scans down to the bottom worth while, here is the solution I have for that.

Energy Scan: Subspace Turrets use hyperspace transmitters to send energy through hyperspace receivers. Even when not in use, enegy is needed to keep the network together. By tracking this energy, this scan(used on an empire) can return the location and number of all subspace turrets, hyperspace transmitters, hyperspace receiver turrets, and wormhole amplifiers so you can better plan your attack.

Build Cost: 3000 units/scan
Research required: Deep-Space Scanning

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since research is already long enough this is why I added these options to already made parts of the tree rather than new ones.
Also as you see I find this adds a lots of more interesting defensive/offensive strategy to the game, improves the usefulness of the bottom part of the research tree, and that scanning branch, and balances offensive and defensive strategies.

Also I can see this adding much more interesting battles later in the game, and may prolong games because of this fact.

I know this will probably be on the low-priority to do list, but I am just getting it out there, see if people like it.

Erwin, if you want I can even help you implement this if you are interested just contact me by e-mail.

Note: All values above are a suggestion and can be balanced during practice to make things fair if the above deemed unbalanced.

What you guys think?

This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 25.07.2007 01:55.

28.06.2007 05:58 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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Why would anyone use turrets alone to defend a planet?
They are powerful and cheap, but they need backup from a fleet of your own.
I see no use what so ever for a turret that big.
No one would bother taking the planet.
What would be the point?
The planet itself could only have the most limited amount of production when 200 units of space are given over to defence.
You could have 20 heavy turrets for that and 10 would be overkill.
I mean for the same cost of building that turret you could outfit the planet with a load of automated factorys and churn out battleships.


Personally I don’t find system scans useful so I don't get the last part of that research branch but I use every other type of scan.
A system scan can be beaten by a single clocked shuttle with the second level of scanners available.
and I don’t know about anyone else but I look forward to getting the wormhole infiltrator.


I'd rather see orbital technologies like satellite arrays to allow detection of cloaked ships sooner and to expand sensor range.
It's too easy to be caught unaware when your fleets are off elsewhere.
or a structure to speed repair, or make production of light ships faster still.

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28.06.2007 06:13 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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I personally like the ideas.
Bit confused about the planetary defences.
Seems like you have the one item which is the size of most planets, so how are you supposed to build it without factories?

I like the idea of a stronger more powerful light class ship. Would definately be different and more challenging.

I'd love to give it a try Smile
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Um... you obviously didn't read/understand the whole post. You'd only have 1 or 2 Subspace Turrets in your whole system of planets. By building cheap Hyperspace Receiver Turrets on all your planets, you can use the Subspace Turret defense as part of ALL your planets defenses.... That is the TRUE power of that turret, and why I put it so expensive and taking so much space. So yes I think it would be well worth the sacrifice of 1 or 2 planets in order to make 50000/550000/0 firepower and 750000 defense to all planets you own practically, since Hyperspace Receiver Transmitters are pretty cheap space wise, and reletively cheap to build for the power.

Oh and for building the Subspace Turret, it is the size of some planets, how do you build it with that expense. Well... that would require strategy, now would it.... but think about it after it is built you can use 1 in your empire, and then just make cheap Hyperspace Receiver Turrets on all other planets in order to make that 1 Huge turrets apply to ALL your planets, I think it would be worth the effort.

Plus if you think of SMART building strategies, you can make this fast enough!... plus wouldn't it be worth the sacrifice to guard ALL your planets.... with 1 turret, or 2 perhaps.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 28.06.2007 06:39.

28.06.2007 06:35 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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well with a planet with;
population 35
a base of 4 Production Per Worker and 125% quality
a good enough rep to have a coruption of 0
350 space on the planet with 144 space of it turned over to auto factorys

Then it would take you 9 turns if you turned over the entire population to workers Smile

you would then have to sell off some of those auto factories to make the planet useful for anything other than wealth.

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28.06.2007 06:37 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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you're talking about making it near impossable to take another players planet though just based on the planet defences built
why would anyone bother building any more fleets when they start building super turrets that make losing planets next to impossable?
It just makes playing turtle to easy.

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28.06.2007 06:39 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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I also like your idea Lost Cause of a building to speed up repairs of ships.
I'm thinking of an upgraded version of a shipyard which would cost 30-35, would replace the shipyard once researched (obviously need to build it first), and could not only speed up repairs, but also hold a certain number of military.

Another idea which would be something to put down the list in the research would be possibly a way to instantly (or a set amount of turns)
transfer military from one planet to another (without the use of breeding ships). Would greatly facilitate manning ships.
So a building which would need to be built on both planets in order to transport any amount of military from one planet to another ( a breeder to a ship producing planet.) Should prolly be around size 20.

I'd suggest putting it with either Magnetic Monopoles or Hyperspace Controller.
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Check the added offsensive changes, should double the current fleet firepower/shields, plus that added ship!. Plus you have to do all the research to get the true benefits of this system, I can't see anyone with more than 2 Subspace Turrets.... since with each one it gets WAY more expensive to build, not many more amplifiers either....

Plus by turn 500 to 700 you have fleets easily with 1 million defense, and 400000 heavy firepower. which is definitely comparable to this defense.... and that is with current stats, imagine with the new ship, and the added space to the ships we already have.
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Interesting points. So, if you had found 2 vacant planets to build your Subspace Turrets with 2 Hyperspace Transmitters, all you would need is 2 Hyperspace Receivers (50 units) on each planet, and all of your empire will have at least 750K defense Shocked . Awesome return...invest 50 units of planetary space, and you have 750K HP. Of course, like you said, all these numbers are subject to tweaking. Smile

I wonder how much the battle calc would have to change... Confused

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28.06.2007 06:49 quickstrike is offline Send an Email to quickstrike Search for Posts by quickstrike Add quickstrike to your Buddy List
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Also.... the planets with Subspace turrets, cannot have a Hyperspace Receiver Turret, meaning they cannot be amplified and cannot receive signals from your network of Subspace turrets. This means these planets would be considerable weaker, never anymore than 30000/250000/0 firepower and 500000 defense. Making any planet with these as weak spots in your empire.

The plan would be to scan your empire, and try and take out these planets first, since losing 1 of these, would reduce your defenses throught your entire empire, losing all of these would cripple your defenses....

As I said it brings strategy....

And as quickstrike pointed out, this is just my figures, it can be tweaked to be made fair.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 28.06.2007 06:53.

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its a very interesting idea, and yes, it would require strategy since you would have weak spots. Would make it hard to take over that person and most likely, they'll move on to others and build up a fleet.
this kind of thing would make the game last longer than it currently does though since it would require more strategy and planning, and more firepower to start taking someone down.
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Or try and get a fleet way earlier and attack a person before he can even get down to the late research any of this strategy requires, and is able to setup this kind of system....

So definitely adds to the offensive timing strategy of the game.

Also by making the Subspace Turret so big, it limits which kind of planets you could conceivably build this thing on.... would definitely have to pick a planet over 300 space, and definitely of good to great quality...

Yeah the battle calc would need to be changed quickstrike, although I don't forsee it being too difficult. I am a software developer by the way, so I know approximately the difficulty of programming these things, it is just a matter of finding the time to do it.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 28.06.2007 07:22.

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I certainly like your ideas Phantom, because it would add a nice bit of strategy to the game. However, while I'm sure we could add this to the current game, it is also not quite as simple as it sounds. There are a few implications that make things a tad more difficult to implement, like quickstrike pointed out, what about the BattleCalc? Or Planetary Scans, and I'm sure there are a few other aspects that are touched.

So in short, a nice set of feature that would improve the game, but I'd rather be further down the bug list, before we start adding new features. So I certainly keep a reference to this thread for the future, but it will have to wait a while (just like other new features).
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I would just implement a modified planetary shield that absorbs 100% damage for one turn (or X,XX turns based on shield tech) per shield gen built, this way the PD gets enough time to deal some damage and slow down conquest a bit (I rarely see planets with more than 3 shield gens).

Simple and effective
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hehe Dookie has 5 on some of his planets in Galaxy 30 before I took them.
It was quite frustrating to get through them.

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28.06.2007 10:21 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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quote:
Originally posted by Erwin [SC]
I certainly like your ideas Phantom, because it would add a nice bit of strategy to the game. However, while I'm sure we could add this to the current game, it is also not quite as simple as it sounds. There are a few implications that make things a tad more difficult to implement, like quickstrike pointed out, what about the BattleCalc? Or Planetary Scans, and I'm sure there are a few other aspects that are touched.

So in short, a nice set of feature that would improve the game, but I'd rather be further down the bug list, before we start adding new features. So I certainly keep a reference to this thread for the future, but it will have to wait a while (just like other new features).


Well for the Battle calc, an easy way to solve it would be to do the following:

When you put a Hyperspace Receiver Turret as a weapon, you could have the choice in the drop down list to add (Outside Influences)

Then under outside influences you can add the Subspace Turrets and Wormhole Amplifiers affecting this planet.

That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and I think that takes care of the likely scenarios.

About the planetary scan, either one of the following:

A) Only detects the Hyperspace Receiver Turret on the planet, and if you see that it has one, probably best to do an Energy Scan to get the "Outside Influences" on the planet.... remember these options are quite late in the game.

B) You can have it give back these "Outside Influences" but not their locations...

As for other things.... well I'll cross that road when I come to it.

Also as I said, not like this will be done right away, it is Low-priority, but I think it can definitely benefit the game, strategically and add more fun to the end of it.
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quote:
Originally posted by |Odi|
I would just implement a modified planetary shield that absorbs 100% damage for one turn (or X,XX turns based on shield tech) per shield gen built, this way the PD gets enough time to deal some damage and slow down conquest a bit (I rarely see planets with more than 3 shield gens).

Simple and effective


the problem i would see with this is the current shield generator can be built in a single turn at high production planets making them impossible to defeat. This can be rectified with further changes such as increasing cost, limiting building options while under siege, etc... just thought i would bring it up.

phantom:
-i do find your planetary defense ideas interesting, i don't know if i am in favor but i do find the idea of empire wide defense interesting. like you said the numbers and details may need tweaking.
-I am 100% on board with the idea of increasing hull space on the larger ships. Maybe not by quit as much but i haven't played with the numbers at all.
-I am definitely in favor of an advanced light ship hull but i think yours is way to much. 4000 space would make it way to powerful even with the vulnerability to light and heavy firepower. Frigates have 400 space currently, if it had 800-900 space and the weight of a destroyer i would probably use it a lot but it would not completely dominate all other ship hulls.
-with the increased value of cloaked ships that already exists your new hull design would really tip the balance towards light fleets. even though i am aware that you intend to make it vulnerable to both light and heavy firepower i think a shiny new light ship weapon later in the tech tree would be a good counterbalance. i was thinkng make it big enough where only cruisers and battleships can mount it effectively(with your hull increases) giving heavy fleets a counter against said light fleets.

the biggest problems that i see is that your changes will greatly affect the balance of the game so will probably take quit a few galaxies to tweak everything. and as erwin stated there are a lot of things that take priority.

p.s. are you wanting stronger planet defenses because my fleet is ripping through your planets right now? Evil LOL

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Personally, I don't see that planetary defenses need a big boost. Sure, they can't hold up to fleets in the late game, but I don't see that they have to. As I see it, planetary defenses serve two purposes:

1) Keeping you safe in the early and mid game.
2) Requiring a larger investment of resources to take a planet in the late game.

The real defenses are fleets. This I think is a perfectly fine state of affairs, as fleets, being mobile, are a much more complex and interesting strategic element.

Your idea for empire-wide defenses is definitely an interesting approach, but I don't think it would really add much strategy. The strategy required to use it effectively would be very simple: Build giant defenses with transmitters on a couple planets, build receivers on most other planets. Done. It adds one more type of planet specialization onto the list (ship production, scan production, breeder, science, training and wealth), but no really interesting strategic decisions.
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Well the strategy behind it comes with, the planets with the Subspace Turrets would be your weakest planets in your network, because they can't be given the benefit of having all the turrets or amplifiers in the network working for them.

So this means as for the offensive side you'd want to take these few planets down first!

Meaning on the defensive side you'd have to build a fleet(s) to help defend these weak spots. Remember if the offense takes down your Subspace Turret planets, your entire network of planets is back down to plain defense, basically... sure it would have some shielding but very weak firepower.

1) I agree that fleets for defense later in the game should be used, just this way makes the fleet defense manageable. You'd only need the fleet to defend the 2 or 3 weak planets(or perhaps, the offensive force could take the entire grid head on, and you are screwed anyways, who knows, but at least that is made much harder) instead of 75 to 150 planets, which you may have late in the game. So there remains a point to ship defenses.

2) I just find this would balance the power of the offensive fleet. As it stands you only have to make 1 huge fleet, and it can sweep through and take your entire empire of planets, without even doing 1 repair job, if good enough. I mean people can currently make a fleet of 126000/659025/600000 firepower and 1205000 in approximately 200 turns, and by turn 600 in the game. I mean what kind of chance do you have at defending that? None! Except the fleet you have.... maybe.... if you are lucky. This way, as like the fleet where you make 1 set of construction to take out an entire empire, this strategy would do the same for defense. Since against the above fleet any planetary defense is obsolete!

3) Problems with the defensive fleet(s) defending a huge empire, is that A) If attacked you would probably lose 10 to 20 planets before your defensive fleet can even reach the attacking fleet, maybe more depending on speed an luck position of your fleet(s).
B) If you approach close enough, the offense could just split his fleet into a million pieces and runaway for a bit, or sneak around you or something.
C) His fleet may be faster than you, and he could just take you for a ride...

Either way you don't have too many options, and 1 to 5 fleets could never successfully defend an empire of the above magnitude.

This idea gives defensive fleets their job and keeps it manageable late in the game for an empire of that size, and keeps the boringness of running over people's empires late in the game, or feeling helpless against a force you know you have no chance in challenging. It brings more challenges, fun, and strategy, by planning how you are going to have to take a person down, and how you are going to defend yourself.

As for the light ship, maybe 4000 is too much for a light ship, I don't know, but definitely more than 1000, probably at least as much as a Battleship at 2000 to be worthwhile. Remember you have to go all the way to Magnetic Monopoles to get this ship type, not like you'll see this ship too early in the game now. This gives many uses for cruiser and battleship fleets until you get all the way down there... so I don't find 4000 overly powerful for the time in the game it is presented, though I may be wrong, who knows.

So as you see you're number 2) is not working currently, planetary defense currently doesn't make someone spend huge resources to in order to take over planets late in the game. I mean I can spend 50 turns and get 750000 bombing power and 100000 firepower, and just take out any empire I want, 100 planets, it is worth the effort... nothing on any planet going to stop me currently is there?

P.S. uncountednose.... yeah I thought of this while I am losing my planets to you.... but at least I turned frustration into some pretty good ideas.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by The Phantom: 29.06.2007 03:33.

29.06.2007 03:25 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom
So as you see you're number 2) is not working currently, planetary defense currently doesn't make someone spend huge resources to in order to take over planets late in the game. I mean I can spend 50 turns and get 750000 bombing power and 100000 firepower, and just take out any empire I want, 100 planets, it is worth the effort... nothing on any planet going to stop me currently is there?


I didn't say huge resources, I said MORE resources. Which is to say, they can't just conquer my planet with a troop ship. It requires they at least build a few bombers and make a fleet of it. I've taken out empires that failed to build any planetary defenses, and it's MUCH easier when you don't have to worry about bombing. It removes the necessity for a whole major ship type.

Honestly, in the late game, battles between large empires seem to be composed of a lot of back-and-forth. Sure, you can conquer a ton of my planets before I can get a defensive fleet over there, but I can also conquer a ton of your planets in the same time. Planets and systems get traded about. You end up splitting your fleet so you can conquer multiple systems at once to conquer faster then your opponent, but this makes the fleets weaker, and easier for defensive fleets to take out.

Sure, when you're facing somebody who is much bigger then you, they can just roll right over you. However, there is nothing wrong with that. A large portion of the strategy of the game is figuring out how to be grow quickly so you can be a contender in the late game. If you fail in this first area of strategy, then you won't really have the opportunity to wage effective, large scale war with those who succeeded. This is how it should be.

And this is coming from somebody who has typically failed to be up to snuff for the final wars, too. But I recognize this as being primarily my own failing, not because the system was in any way stacked against me, or unbalanced.
29.06.2007 06:18 HeruFeanor is offline Send an Email to HeruFeanor Search for Posts by HeruFeanor Add HeruFeanor to your Buddy List
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