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DarkLStrike Player-Rank: 3
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Unbalanced Unmanned Orbital Ships Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

Ever heard of orbital defense platforms? These are the powerful engineless ships that are filled to the brim with weapons and shields.

Now, since unmanned ships still retain their shield values in combat, unmanned orbital ships with pure shields began to arise. With gaussian shield technology, a single battleship can have approximately 150k shields, and with warp shield tech, battleships can have more than 210k. Plop one of these babies on your planets and it will stall the invasion fleet for hours (and the shipyard is actively repairing it)! And you don't even have to man it!

I have used this strategy actively against Ganondorf and Nyupud in galaxy 97. In that game, single unmanned battleships have stopped fleets composed of over 200 vessels on many planets across multiple systems. I feel that this strategy is overpowered and should be phased out from the game. I propose that, while unmanned, a ship should not retain its shield bonus (which is logical as there will be no personnel operating the shields).

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10.07.2008 21:18 DarkLStrike is offline Send an Email to DarkLStrike Search for Posts by DarkLStrike Add DarkLStrike to your Buddy List
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RE: Unbalanced Unmanned Orbital Ships Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I agree with this. And as much as I like using the "feature" it is two powerful. It may be ok however to have some shield power running, like say 20% or so. Just because its unmanned does not mean its un-powered. Or another idea would be that with every soilder on the ship it would increase by a percentage up until its fully manned. That way you can throw a few extra soilders on it just to beef it up when an attacks is close.
10.07.2008 21:55 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
Lost Cause Player-Rank: 2 Lost Cause is a male
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Personally I'd rather see unnamed ships not counting as defence at all, and should the planet they are orbiting be capture the unmanned ships become the property of the attacker.

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10.07.2008 22:00 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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ya, and we would then be able to learn all the tech that the ship has and speed up research. that would be cool.
10.07.2008 22:04 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
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nahhh, Reverse Engineering is not a feature of the game yet Big Grin
being able to capture more advanced ships would be nice though.

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10.07.2008 22:06 Lost Cause is offline Send an Email to Lost Cause Search for Posts by Lost Cause Add Lost Cause to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for Lost Cause
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well then how are you going to use the new high tech ship if you don't even know what it does or how it works. I guess there could be a giant red button that says "press me"
10.07.2008 22:22 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
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Actually I don't find it overpowered at all... I find it a legitimate defense tactic against fleets which have huge bombing power with little to no firepower. In that case this works wonderfully.

However since it takes awhile to build these shield ships, if a fleet has over 40K heavy firepower, things will tip into his favour since he will be able to destroy faster than you can build, and later if a fleet has 100K firepower which is common late game when you have Gaussian and Warp shields then this strategy will only stall someone for perhaps 1 to 3 turns max.

So I don't want to remove this strategy from the game. If you see someone employing this it just means build some damn firepower!!!! You don't need much either like 10 to 20 firepower battleships at the end of the game will take these babies out of the water in 1 or 2 turns.
11.07.2008 12:15 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
DarkLStrike Player-Rank: 3
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Thread Starter Thread Started by DarkLStrike
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These things' build cost is as same as a normal battleship's, same with their upkeep, so it doesn't take too long to build. The unbalanced part is not that these ships exist, but it's that they can still function unmanned.

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11.07.2008 13:54 DarkLStrike is offline Send an Email to DarkLStrike Search for Posts by DarkLStrike Add DarkLStrike to your Buddy List
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I think the stratagy is fine to, but I like the idea that the more you Man the ship the better it is at its roll. So if its unmanned you get only 25% of the normal shield power. With every man you add to the ship you get an increase. Now if we were able to actually have orbital defense platforms that were designed for the game i would say take it away, but for right not this is all we have. Plus if you were able to build 2 or more of these things and have great PD it really would be tough to beat.
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Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
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Well, right now the rule is that unmanned ships need to be destroyed before one can take the planet. It could be changed to "unmanned ships get automatically destroyed at the moment a planet is conquered". That means one would have to man those "defense fortresses" in order to get the desired effect out of them. What do you think about that?

Of course we could go one step further and capture unmanned ships when conquering a planet, but that would be extra work, since I would have to deal with the new ship-design as well as the (possible not yet researched) technologies that are involved.
11.07.2008 14:10 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
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I think the ship by its self is fine and the need to destroy it should be there. I just think that if its manned its moe powerful and harder to destry, plus it would ad a little more work to the job than just building a ship. You would have to find the resources to make it more powerful. As of right now its a easy thing to do. I just want to see it be something that takes a little more effort in work. So if a battle ships takes 15 men to man and it only has 1 man, its will be more powerful than a totally unmanned ship but only by a little bit. Even man added to the ship will increase the power.

If people decide not to man it most of the time and just throw men on when about to be attacked thats fine as well. but it will make the planet far less productive. I think it adds a stratagy to the game thats deeper. Plus, it may also make weapons on the ship useful even if they are at a minimum.
11.07.2008 14:41 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
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I've always preferred making unmanned ships ineffective. So making them automatically destroyed when the planet is taken is a simple way to do that.

I do like the idea still being able to use an undermanned ship. However, I think the penalty for doing so should be severe, even with one man missing, in order to make the crew-size minimums (for 100% effectiveness) meaningful.

One way to do this is have the effectiveness go down exponentially, e.g. as a proportion of squares. For example: with a ship that requires 6 crew to man, if you manned it with 5 men, you're effectiveness would go down by 1-(5^2/6^2) = 31%. It would be 31% slower, and have 31% less armour, shields, and firepower.

Continuing the 6-man ship example:

1 less crew: 31% less effective
2 less crew: 56% less
3 less crew: 75% less
4 less crew: 89% less
5 less crew: 97% less

For a 3-man ship:

1 less crew: 56% less effective
2 less crew: 89% less

Of course, I don't think this relation should apply when *over* manning a ship. With that it should just work as it already does.

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11.07.2008 17:30 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
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I do like this idea as an overall way to man all ships. This would get rid of the manditory minimum for manning a ship. So on a battleship you could have 1 man on there and be able to use it. I would not be very effective at all, but it would allow you to maybe move the ships around more to other planets that are better suited to fully man it.

This alos brings up another thing that could be use. There could be another scan thats used to see how ships are manned. I could see someone cranking out battleships and just putting one or two crew on them and flying them around. Kind of a deturance. So a scan to see how powerful it is would be nice. And it should be seperate, not part of a fleet or military scan.
11.07.2008 17:43 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
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Meh, I guess I agree with Erwin on this one.

Just make it so you have to man the "defense ships in orbit" in order for them to work properly. Perhaps use the exponential sliding scale proposed above for partially manned ships. I would apply the sliding scale to shields, firepower at the very least, and perhaps even speed(meh who knows if someone wants to do it go ahead), or all ship attributes perhaps.

If there is an unmanned ship in orbit because of the sliding scale it would be 0 in everything, and I think since it is "abandoned" when conquering the planet your troops should just get any "abondoned" ships in orbit as added to your own forces!

I think this would make the most sense concerning this as a comprimise. Because it is true that the unfairness of this strategy is that you don't have to man those ships in orbit, and not the strategy itself.
11.07.2008 19:17 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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This is not a tactic I use often but I have used it.

I agree that an unman ship should not add to the defence of the planet. The way I do this when I use it is give the ship guns and man it if need it with the people on the planet. Gives me extra FP to take out more ships Big Grin

What to do with unman ship? I can see two ways to go with this one not sure which is the best.
1) Destroy the ship and give the person the points
2) Capture the ship, Reverse Engineer the ship (Destroy it) and give the person a Research boost for each differnt ship design. Design would be what anything new in the ship. You would not get a boost for say Warp Sheild every time you Captured a ship with Warp Sheilds in it.
11.07.2008 19:56 Halburn is offline Send an Email to Halburn Search for Posts by Halburn Add Halburn to your Buddy List
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I think its fair defense against bomber only fleets

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Guys... um... You realize the only reason they are left unmanned is they do not need to be.

Lets say the rules are changed so an unmanned ship will not prevent invasion... ok then it will get manned at the last minute... you realize these sheild ships do serve 2 purposes...

1) delay an invasion.
2) ensure much of the pop DIES if you do not expect to be able to return.

If the rules further change so that a ship needs to be manned and also have guns... fine... a BB max shields no engines and a pop gun... ok so change the rules so it must also have engines... fine put a tiny engine in it.

The real problem is that a significantly smaller number of ships is able to block an invasion.

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11.07.2008 21:26 Gedrin is offline Send an Email to Gedrin Search for Posts by Gedrin Add Gedrin to your Buddy List
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Manning a ship at the last minute is a workaround to all these suggestions, true. Of course, you have to be online to do that, but maybe it's yet another undesirable advantage given to those who are able to be online more.

However, manning a large ship does take a lot of men... and if you build a lot of these ships, it will drain your population available for other things. Not a big deal with a breeder planet on hand, yes, but a pain nonetheless, and will impact your production.

But yes, it's merely a delaying tactic. Requiring manning the shieldships makes it slightly less cheesy, and less efficient, but maybe not by much.

Perhaps the real solution is to have a cap on the amount of shields a ship can have, or have diminishing returns with every extra shield generator (or maybe something more mathematically elegant that gives the same diminishing result).

A less artificial restriction would be to have shields draw power from the reactor (I forget how they work, maybe they already do that...). That way, if you try to add too many shields, you have to add way more reactors to power them, effectively limiting how many shields you can use without having an artificial cap or diminishing returns.

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11.07.2008 22:00 TerraNova is offline Send an Email to TerraNova Search for Posts by TerraNova Add TerraNova to your Buddy List
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Meh either way I think it is just what Gedrin said a delay attack tactic against people who have bomber ONLY fleets!!! This tactic doesn't work at all if the opposing fleet has like 200K heavy firepower on hand which if you have Gaussian or Warp shields to actually employ this strategy the opponents probably have these fleets and much more.

In which this strategy becomes obsolete.

And either way it doesn't hurt the offense anyways it only slows them down a bit.
12.07.2008 11:31 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
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I hate to point this out, but if someone has more time to play a game good for them
you cant hold it against someone and say they are online more, so they have the advantage!
Of cores they do.
but your lack of free time is your problem, not a problem in the game.
it really cant be a factor in determining if something is fare or not.
someone with more time to do something will always have an advantage.
beyond locking them out after X number of hours you can't really do much about it.

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