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Gedrin Player-Rank: 3 Gedrin is a male
Assigns Gov Schwarzenegger to all Planets


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Registration Date: 22.02.2007
Posts: 784
Location: Third Star To The Left, straight on til morning

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quote:
Originally posted by DarkLStrike
The low planet count of The Phantom and his relatively high non-planet scores are unsettling. He probably has some nasty trick up his sleeve.


This is more evidence that the rep system is broken.

Ok so without even getting into the math of it...
1) Phantom is not doing anything that requires the collusion of another player. The system is functioning as it was intended.
2) The system was intended to protect newbies by inflicting a penalty on those who would take them out... the reality is it protects a small empire from a big one AND benifits a small empire that attacks a big one.
3) Phantom is hardly a newbie.

This point #3 is the strongest evidence that the system does not work and he is not even exploiting a loophole. He is using the rep system as designed it is simply NOT accomplishing the goal of helping the inexperienced while hindering the veterans.

Why? Because 5k for a planet is out of line really.
I mean honestly... I don't think it is anything unique for us to consider the real comparison between empires at this point to be score mod 5000 and not just the score itself.

And I admit I have done the same... holding off on colonizing until I am in a position to hit someone... I've just never done it to more than one neighbor... but thats because it never occured to me that people would then accept a treaty from me and an early war vs 5-6 opponents is not a situation I would call happy.

Some ideas come to mind.
1) rep loss gain includes some factor of turn number... ie increases to a point over x turns
2)The corruption formula has rep as a multiplier to bas corruption... HUH? Rep should be an additive delta not a multiplier.... If you own every system in the galaxy you should still have some corruption... I guess what I am saying is under no circumstances should 1 more planet ever result in a more positive corruption modifier.

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22.09.2008 15:27 Gedrin is offline Send an Email to Gedrin Search for Posts by Gedrin Add Gedrin to your Buddy List
Erwin [CS] Player-Rank: 2 Erwin [CS] is a male
Admiral Moo


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Registration Date: 26.12.2004
Posts: 8,573
Location: Vienna, Austria

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I figured this one deserves a separate thread.

What Phantom is doing is legit under the current rules, and at the same time very risky. However, he also mentioned that 5000 score per planet is not very representative in the beginning.

Later in the game the score you get per planet plays a lot smaller role, and I also don't think that decreasing that number will change anything about that issue.

What probably is a better solution (since score probably can never be a indicator of the "quality" of a player - especially if players hold back (on colonization) on purpose), is to indeed fade in the effect of reputation slowly over the first, say, 100-150 turns.

quote:

The corruption formula has rep as a multiplier to bas corruption... HUH? Rep should be an additive delta not a multiplier.... If you own every system in the galaxy you should still have some corruption... I guess what I am saying is under no circumstances should 1 more planet ever result in a more positive corruption modifier.

I agree with you on that.
22.09.2008 15:46 Erwin [CS] is offline Search for Posts by Erwin [CS] Add Erwin [CS] to your Buddy List
chrisadamley Player-Rank: 3
Wins even when not in your Galaxy


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Registration Date: 18.01.2007
Posts: 2,853
Location: Fargo ND

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quote:
Originally posted by Gedrin
quote:
Originally posted by DarkLStrike
The low planet count of The Phantom and his relatively high non-planet scores are unsettling. He probably has some nasty trick up his sleeve.


This is more evidence that the rep system is broken.

Ok so without even getting into the math of it...
1) Phantom is not doing anything that requires the collusion of another player. The system is functioning as it was intended.
2) The system was intended to protect newbies by inflicting a penalty on those who would take them out... the reality is it protects a small empire from a big one AND benifits a small empire that attacks a big one.
3) Phantom is hardly a newbie.

This point #3 is the strongest evidence that the system does not work and he is not even exploiting a loophole. He is using the rep system as designed it is simply NOT accomplishing the goal of helping the inexperienced while hindering the veterans.

Why? Because 5k for a planet is out of line really.
I mean honestly... I don't think it is anything unique for us to consider the real comparison between empires at this point to be score mod 5000 and not just the score itself.

And I admit I have done the same... holding off on colonizing until I am in a position to hit someone... I've just never done it to more than one neighbor... but thats because it never occured to me that people would then accept a treaty from me and an early war vs 5-6 opponents is not a situation I would call happy.

Some ideas come to mind.
1) rep loss gain includes some factor of turn number... ie increases to a point over x turns
2)The corruption formula has rep as a multiplier to bas corruption... HUH? Rep should be an additive delta not a multiplier.... If you own every system in the galaxy you should still have some corruption... I guess what I am saying is under no circumstances should 1 more planet ever result in a more positive corruption modifier.


Well, technically he is abusing it.....which, what he's doing im not even sure how you would stop it.....

because, its an agreement between the players in game, how do you get around that?

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22.09.2008 15:53 chrisadamley is offline Send an Email to chrisadamley Search for Posts by chrisadamley Add chrisadamley to your Buddy List
Gedrin Player-Rank: 3 Gedrin is a male
Assigns Gov Schwarzenegger to all Planets


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Registration Date: 22.02.2007
Posts: 784
Location: Third Star To The Left, straight on til morning

Thread Starter Thread Started by Gedrin
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No no... I dont think he's made any agreements... he says not and I believe him.... hence use not abuse.

It's not like in 108 where he was actually paying people to let him kill a scout... which I thought was brilliant... I was just surprised anyone went for it. Shocked

but really this little rep thing is no big deal yet. instead of -1.5% hes got +0.23... no big deal at all... it will become a big deal later.

But keep in mind here Phantoms score mod 5000 far outstrips the rest of us.... why? because he has not colonized but focused on his 3 planets... this is why his score is low, because with 5k per planet your score is no indicator of your potential. It was true under the old rules but I think even more true under the new system.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Gedrin: 22.09.2008 16:22.

22.09.2008 16:17 Gedrin is offline Send an Email to Gedrin Search for Posts by Gedrin Add Gedrin to your Buddy List
Trantor Player-Rank: 3
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


Registration Date: 16.08.2007
Posts: 665

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wish phantom was near me.....i would have placed a dozen figters round his planets to ensure that the colony ships never take off Mad

or even better....a dozen fruit basket to motivate the scientist to rebel

anyone near phantom and not attacking before he gets his 4th planet.......well u are literally begging to be exterminated by the technologically superior "phantomites" LOL
22.09.2008 17:18 Trantor is offline Send an Email to Trantor Search for Posts by Trantor Add Trantor to your Buddy List
Ruger Player-Rank: 3 Ruger is a male
Rules with an Iron Pinky


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Registration Date: 23.03.2008
Posts: 1,317
Location: Rochester, MN

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I am near him and have had a couple colony ships take already. but have also beat hime to planets that he wanted. Should do a little to slow him down.

It is a good strat, but if he does it with to many and they don;t accept peace, he may see lots of empires coming at him from all directions.

In 108 he did the same thing and it worked out quite well as no one was able to stand up to him. Then he was out of the game for a bit and that was the problem. If not it would have been a whole other stoy I am sure.

Stratagys will have to change to counter the risk takers. But It is fun to have challanges like this in game.

However the rep he gets for attacking a colony ship seems to be quite high.
22.09.2008 17:29 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
The Phantom Player-Rank: 4 The Phantom is a male
Rules with an Iron Pinky


Registration Date: 04.10.2006
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Location: Canada

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Well for the calculation of rep with score, you can split the score into 2 parts: the economic score, and the planet score.

For the calculation of rep you make the highest economic score worth the same as the highest planet score.

So if someone has 15 planets with 77000 and he has the most planets, he has a planet score of 75000, and economic score of 2000.

Now I have 3 planets with 22000. So I have a planet score of 15000 and an economic score of 7000(the highest).

So you make the 7000 equivalent to the 75000(always make the lower of the 2 equivalent to the higher one). So for rep purposes, my score would be 75000(highest economy, matches highest planet score) + 15000 = 90000

The other guy would have 75000(planet score) + 2000/7000 * 75000 = 96428.

Lets say another guy has 8 planets but with an economy of 5000, then they would have the following score for rep calculation: 40000 + 5000/7000 * 75000 = 93571

That should make things a bit more fair, since your economy would be equivalent to your # of planets... so weaker players are protected!!!! And I can't do what I am doing.

By the way Gedrin, I never made any deals in G108 or this game, I just called war on whoever I could see and take down their ship(s). Then I offer them a treaty when the time comes, up to them to accept it or not.

However risky for people who have probably no military this early in the game to stay at war, especially considering I am now building Corvettes with Quantum drive bombers at the moment... but hey it is sure fun!!!!
22.09.2008 23:45 The Phantom is offline Send an Email to The Phantom Search for Posts by The Phantom Add The Phantom to your Buddy List View the MSN Profile for The Phantom
chrisadamley Player-Rank: 3
Wins even when not in your Galaxy


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Registration Date: 18.01.2007
Posts: 2,853
Location: Fargo ND

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quote:
Originally posted by Gedrin
No no... I dont think he's made any agreements... he says not and I believe him.... hence use not abuse.

It's not like in 108 where he was actually paying people to let him kill a scout... which I thought was brilliant... I was just surprised anyone went for it. Shocked

but really this little rep thing is no big deal yet. instead of -1.5% hes got +0.23... no big deal at all... it will become a big deal later.

But keep in mind here Phantoms score mod 5000 far outstrips the rest of us.... why? because he has not colonized but focused on his 3 planets... this is why his score is low, because with 5k per planet your score is no indicator of your potential. It was true under the old rules but I think even more true under the new system.


oh alright...heh i was misinformed...

well jeez, that has to be pretty risky then if you dont have a deal with them ahead of time lol

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23.09.2008 06:14 chrisadamley is offline Send an Email to chrisadamley Search for Posts by chrisadamley Add chrisadamley to your Buddy List
azazel Player-Rank: 2 azazel is a male
Hurries Production on Hotdog Stands


Registration Date: 25.06.2007
Posts: 642
Location: Inside your mind? Or in your heart?

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On a slightly different note, one thing that has always bugged me somewhat is that score can decrease when you lose stuff. I think score should never decrease. Score should not be a measure of what you currently hold, but of what you have achieved in the galaxy so far.

With the current system, even the score of the winner will drop for a while whenever two bigger empires battle it out (loss of ships). I find this counter-intuitive.

Just my 5c,
Azazel
23.09.2008 17:30 azazel is offline Send an Email to azazel Search for Posts by azazel Add azazel to your Buddy List
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