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Profetius Eteus
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Hello All. New player. Signed up today, getting my feet wet in one of the sandboxes (interesting metaphor actually ... feet wet in the sand) anyways. My natural gaming background comes from one of infinite persistence.

Meaning that the game world doesn't "end".

I was wondering if there was any thought of starting a persistent galaxy?
Where one can build an empire over the course of a few months, without feeling the impending pressure to build as fast as you can as to rank by Armageddon.

A lot of people instantly volunteer the concept of 1 player or 1 group to rule them all, where without limitations the largest players would conquer the entire galaxy and destroy any new upstarts.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but pre-defined limitations actually do prevent this quite easily.

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I'm 25, finishing my Master's in Computer and Information Sciences
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16.10.2009 08:15 Profetius Eteus is offline Send an Email to Profetius Eteus Search for Posts by Profetius Eteus Add Profetius Eteus to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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Welcome aboard Profetius, you seem like an excellent addition to the many clever people around here.

I don't think it's ever been discussed seriously to make a persistent galaxy, since the current mechanics would be awfully poor for that purpose.

In the persistent games I've played (which is far from few), it's always been very hard for new players to carve a piece of the cake for themselves, since the oldtimers have already been cutting the cake for a long time.

Did you have any specific limitations in mind?
16.10.2009 09:21 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
uncountednose Player-Rank: 3 uncountednose is a male
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probably a hard planet limit and an insanely high research multiplier.

count me out. i have always found persisting games to be irritating.

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Welcome to CS Profecius! I concur with Nongolf's sentiments about being a great addition to the great wit that abounds on here. Not including Stabby of course. Tongue

I played a persistent space game.. Called.. CS actually. 'ChosenSpace'. And I loved the heck out of it. But what NonGolf said was correct. The ones who got in on the ground floor usually had the extreme power and the new people found it hard to wrest the crown from their sweaty brow.

Now.. I will say that shortly after I got there, I was able to rise to power through sheer luck and knowing when to cut and run when the HMFIC's glowing red eyeballs looked my alliance's way.
But that's a story for another time. Smile

I think that even beyond the mechanics issue, I believe that everyone here is looking towards everyone starting with a clean slate at the beginnning of the galaxy. Basically, it's a Space Civilization game. Based (loosely) on the game Civilizations.

I'm sure I had more to say, but I appear to have run out of steam. Neutral

But again.. Welcome to CS and I hope you enjoy your time here! Any questions, don't hesistate to ask in the Forum or in Live Chat.

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The galaxy would have to be very big but a persistent galaxy would be very doable. For the most part only a simple set of modifiers and decays would be required to create an interesting scene for the rise and fall of empires.

I don't have time to go into details right now, but a lot of it would hinge on the need to maintain your current tech levels, and your ability to maintain high output levels across an expanding and increasingly corrupt empire.

If the techs that you've acquired require research to maintain, that would be a big step. Just think what would happen if all education on earth stopped...

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16.10.2009 16:44 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by Earendel
If the techs that you've acquired require research to maintain, that would be a big step. Just think what would happen if all education on earth stopped...


Thats not a very liable equasion(?). It'd be more like all of the reseachers said: 'Job done!' and all went on holiday or took a teaching job.

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Also, Welcome Profetius Eteus. Evil

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I hope you get the time Earl, because it would be a game theory innovation of huge proportions. I've never seen or heard it work in practice.
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One thing that would help is the ability to abandon a planet. A large player could improve it's efficiency by abandoning it's less useful planets. That would enable a sort of under-dog colonisation phase for new players. A large player could try and take ALL planets but would suffer greatly for it. It would be more effective to let smaller player have those planets and try and collect some sort of overseer tax. Most large players would subsequently become reliant on his underlings. If the smaller players grouped together and cut their support, then it would get really interesting...
The goal being to hold as many planets as possible for as long as possible - ultimately it comes down to over-expansion, corruption, and revolution.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Earendel: 16.10.2009 20:56.

16.10.2009 20:56 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
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then corruption would need to be uncapped.
from 200 planets to 10 000 planets the corruption atm goes from 29% to 33%. So you could take the 30odd% hit and take as many planets as you like.

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Profetius Eteus
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Earendel is on the right track.

Personally I was thinking a Strict limit of Planets (15 is a nice arbitrary number)

Maintaining Research to maintain technology is definitely a possibility.

The ability to abandon a colonized planet should the need arise (Buildings and such would be destroyed of course, don't want to leave a stronghold behind for your enemy)

Corruption growth would be attached to the 'age' of your planet. The older it is, the more annoying Corruption is, unless (something)
(something) being either the extra added scientists working as teachers in the schools?<very cliche> or maintaining a fleet in orbit to ensure peace.

The persistent game type would encourage "roaming empires" exploring to find better planets, or building what you need to ensure that corruption doesn't consume your empire.

A direct correlation between scientists and corruption makes me sense to me, you could use scientists to reduce corruption, run a few days of scientists only to bring corruption down to a manageable number.

While it would make more sense for scientists to remedy something like "pollution"; use what you have without over-complicating. Scientists to Corruption. Who knows, maybe the root of all evil is dirtiness ...

and therefore using scientists to "clean up the planet" lowers crime.

CAPTAIN PLANET! The Power is YOURS.

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@Earl, Profet:

That's all good and well, but what's the players suppose to, like, do? Once they hit that planet limit (whatever it is), what's the point? Going about and finding better planets? Doesn't sound like fun to me. And when a player has got a hold of all the best planets, the idea is simply to sit and hold on to them, or what?

It's interesting to introduce some form of politics, where support waxes and wanes, but it's been tried time and time again, and someone always ends up on top, and the only way to climb is to wait for one of those top players to get bored and leave (much like a career in public services).
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I*or me thinks - persistence is an over-statement in-general. However and esp for a love me long-time games like CS/gal-maps....

but,

...and all tech babble-aside, variety will always innovate uncertainty.... Neutral

XXZZ quote of the week -

......I've conquered the galaxy, ruled supreme, and I still can't get layy'd and by an alien chick... Shocked

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You're supposed to try and dominate as much of the galaxy as possible. Presumably you could get some fame for doing so. Most other people would be trying to take that person down and get in their place. The rest is just balancing the mechanics.

For example, if you allow low-loyalty planets to rebel even if they've always been owned by one player, and have a loyalty penalty based on the distance from the empire center, that's another soft limit to empire size. one that you can continually fight against.

The idea is to keep things changing and stop stagnation.

It would be great if there more things to do... if you had anything in mind.

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17.10.2009 03:24 Earendel is offline Send an Email to Earendel Homepage of Earendel Search for Posts by Earendel Add Earendel to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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The only games I've tried where it somewhat worked (though still riddled with problems) are RPGs like MUDs and MMORPGs (to a much lesser degree).

People who play these games are having fun not (primarily) by expanding or conquering or besting other player, but rather they enjoy portraying a person in a world. They can have fun doing that quite by themselves, even.

It's quite another matter with strategy games. First and foremost becase it attracts another kind of player - namely those who like to pit their wit against others, testing their mettle in whatever premisses the game upholds.

You can take advantage of that perspective on games, setting up mechanics that try to make a volatile environment where players rise and fall from power as the newcommers strive to stake their claim (or is it claim their stake?). The problem remains that you'll have to either make it a coorperative effort (like politics), or impose artificial limitations which will frustrate players and ultimately bore them.

Even though the 'path of politics' has been walked many times, I've never heard of a game that actually succeeded in simulating that rise and fall from power. It seems there's always some players willing to take a hit for other, more powerful players. The problem here, I gather, is exactly that the world is persistent - you have to live with your choices forever. When you screw someone over, it's not forgive and forget and we can all be allies next time. I think this makes people cautious and much more willing to take a back seat, supporting a hierarchy of top players while they wait to climb the ladder - a ladder they cannot hope to climb without the support of those top players (so they can't afford to screw any of them over - after all, who would support someone who overtook your friend?).
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One of the ways that persistent games assist other players in keeping them off of each other is NPC's and non-military missions/goals available per level of player. Like one game I played, you had to destroy so many NPC's within a certain time limit or 'hunt the wumpus'.
In those games, like One Who Doesn't Play Golf mentioned, there's a whole different clientele. The persons who play that type of thing aren't looking at winner/loser, they're looking for the experience. This is dimetrical opposed to a clear cut end.
While adding these things wouldn't necessarily change the mechanics of the game, it would definitely change the structure.
This game is like Risk or Civilizations. The other aspect would be like MOO or WoW.
All right... it's 5:30a and I've only had about 4 hours sleep. Ran outta gas again.

Nongolf - 'Stake' is the verb and 'claim' is the noun in that particular instance, so you were right the first time. Tongue

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Profetius Eteus
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I prefer my steak cooked medium rare. Still juicy.

Yes, it does pull a different type of player. But you have to bring into view the difference between tactics and strategy.

I admit that I am still learning, but this game seems very much tactics, short term military conquest. It feels long term because your ticks take so long, but to truly fulfill my grandiose vision of 'strategy' requires a much longer timescale.

I look for persistence because of the "state of the universe" it creates. Persistence creates a level of stability, status quo, politics.

I tire very quickly of arms races. And as it is currently, CS seems to be a race to see who has the best governers, admirals, and plan to get to the top of the tech tree, build the ships, and get the most points before anyone else.

All of the 'Civilization' games feel like short term races to me. I want someplace to fortify, someplace to rule, possibly even I admit to role play the role of a ruler of an empire.

I come from a background in games that is very much "trade agreements, military accords, and finite gains"

I love sandboxes. Just not with my steak.

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i don't see it that way. persistent isn't about strategy its about endurance. the current game is certainly a strategic in nature. i believe the distinction you are looking for is grand strategy versus common strategy. a tactics game, on the other hand, would deal almost solely with the units. any infrastructure would be very limited in scope.

if there is enough interest in a persistent galaxy then it should be done(depending on feasibility of course) but don't count me as an interested party.

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With a persistent galaxy you could introduce the "life of a star" that Erwin talked about in a previous topic.

This would mean planets only last a finite amount of time. You could perhaps add in some technology to the research tree meant to extend a star's life.

That's ensures constant turn over of worlds.

Then you have the "technology maintenance" which subtracts from the total science output just like corruption.

The tech tree is really what would need the overhaul for a permanently persistent galaxy. The obstacle here is not to implement some ultra-cheese research mechanic that's like "Automated Factory Level 1, Automated Factory Level 2, Automated Factory Level 3, so on and so forth."

I loathe craptacular MMO mechanics like that.

I think a lot can be added to the game if ground combat was expanded a bit though (i.e. siege vehicles like battlemechs, tanks, et cetera).

The ships would need to be slightly rethought to accommodate carrying vehicles. I think ship ranges is also something that would be absolutely mandatory so as to throttle territorial expansion (and I would simply add a "refueling depot" building to the game that's a one-off building like central defense agencies and shipyards, a ship need only land on a planet with this depot to refuel; there is no actual fuel modeled in the game as that would be much too cumbersome).

If you consider those mechanics I think CS could be translated to a persistent MMO like environment and do fairly well.

Oh, and the final necessary shift would be to eliminate ticks and make everything real time IMO. I know it adds 109842712809347193825% to the server strain and therefore on to the cost of running the servers but I believe it's necessary.
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quote:
Originally posted by uncountednose
persistent isn't about strategy its about endurance.

The challenge is to make it strategic. I'm sure it can be done.

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