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Scurvyllama Player-Rank: 3
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I've been crunching lots of ship battle predictions using the battle calculator lately and i've noticed that the results always tend hit one ship type most of the time. Particularly the ships I insert in the battle calculator first.

Just for example lets say I insert these ship in this order on the left side of the battle calculator:

1 x Corvette (270/0/0, 209HPs )
4 x Corvette (210/0/0, 237HPs )

and on the right side

5 x Corvette (210/0/0, 237HPs )

The results after turn one showed the poor single Corvette getting completely wiped out everytime,every single time... this results in roughly a 50% win for both sides

When I flipped the order I put the ships in, the single Corvette lives almost everytime and almost guaranteeing a victory for them...

-------------------------

Needless to say, I would like to know what exactly determines what gets shot. Also, does the battle calculator truely simulate real battle results? (Ship vs Ship) Such as the same mechanics that are applied to the battle simulator are also applied to the real battles.

I don't want you guys saying "Its just random", just to be frank it's not random, maybe I'm just seeing things but I see tons of trends in the battle report. This isn't neccessarly a bad thing, but I would love to see why it is this way.

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100 sub-iterations....

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Scurvyllama: 29.06.2011 17:54.

29.06.2011 17:51 Scurvyllama is offline Send an Email to Scurvyllama Search for Posts by Scurvyllama Add Scurvyllama to your Buddy List
raf7 Player-Rank: 4
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Hey there Llama,

the battle calculator is good to help you design your ships. Namely, you can design a ship with more shields and another with more fp, test them against each other, and see which one is better. For fleet vs fleet the calculator is not an option, as it does not follow the same rules of real battles. Instead of randomly distributing damage to all ships through 100 iterative fractions (or is it 1000, can anyone please confirm?), it always picks the first ship as target (as you well observed).

You can also use it to check/plan PD strength throughout the various levels of PD and HS-E.

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29.06.2011 20:03 raf7 is offline Send an Email to raf7 Search for Posts by raf7 Add raf7 to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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Well, Llama is right that something seems off. Tell them about the test you did in the testbed gal?

I can verify it over 5 battles, and I have no explanation for it.
29.06.2011 20:18 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
tingling Player-Rank: 4 tingling is a male
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While we're at it, another thing I was wondering we could change was whether we could set the pd bonuses in the calculator. Like if we know the enemy has pd lvl 5, can we incorporate that into the calculator?

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30.06.2011 02:15 tingling is offline Send an Email to tingling Search for Posts by tingling Add tingling to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by tingling
While we're at it, another thing I was wondering we could change was whether we could set the pd bonuses in the calculator. Like if we know the enemy has pd lvl 5, can we incorporate that into the calculator?


It's there already Big Grin
When you've put in a PD facility, you can right-click it to set tech levels, among other things.
30.06.2011 12:00 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
Scurvyllama Player-Rank: 3
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Scurvyllama
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First off I would like to say I am fully aware of the uses of the battle calculator and quite a few of it flaws. Confused

quote:
Originally posted by Scurvyllama
I don't want you guys saying "Its just random"

quote:
Originally posted by raf7
randomly distributing damage to all ships through 100 iterative fractions (or is it 1000, can anyone please confirm?)


eh, didn't I say not to use the R word? I am quite certain it is not entirely random. Oh, before Erwin comes charging in it's 100 sub-iterations.

I was probably not very clear, I blame 40 hours without any sleep.
I am uncertain how both battle calculator and real battles are calculated in terms of targeting priority. It seems that everyone thinks it is random, I keep getting told this....but the battle reports say otherwise....consistantly and frequently....

So really if someone can tell me how the targeting works for REAL BATTLES that would be great... I have evidence that it is not random, I have already shown Nongolf this... but I would like to hear what people know before presenting it and possibly creating bias or skewed responses.

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100 sub-iterations....

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Scurvyllama: 30.06.2011 13:38.

30.06.2011 13:34 Scurvyllama is offline Send an Email to Scurvyllama Search for Posts by Scurvyllama Add Scurvyllama to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Scurvyllama
So really if someone can tell me how the targeting works for REAL BATTLES that would be great... I have evidence that it is not random, I have already shown Nongolf this... but I would like to hear what people know before presenting it and possibly creating bias or skewed responses.


In other words, you want people to make asses of themselves, as you prove them wrong afterwards?

c'mon - just give it up mate.
30.06.2011 14:14 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
Scurvyllama Player-Rank: 3
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Scurvyllama
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quote:
Originally posted by Nongolf

In other words, you want people to make asses of themselves, as you prove them wrong afterwards?

c'mon - just give it up mate.


You bet!

Well, actually I want to see if someone knows something I overlooked... if I tell them what I know they may think that is the only anwser(It may be...) and thus may prevent me from fully understanding the battle reports

This infomation may effect the way everyone plays... can't just go around telling everyone. I want to at least use it personally for one galaxy...

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100 sub-iterations....

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Scurvyllama: 30.06.2011 14:21.

30.06.2011 14:18 Scurvyllama is offline Send an Email to Scurvyllama Search for Posts by Scurvyllama Add Scurvyllama to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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So you were lying when you said that that you "[...] would like to hear what people know before presenting it and possibly creating bias or skewed responses."?

Assuming 'no', this is the best account we have of how real battles work:

quote:
For each player the firepower for all of their ships present at the current location is combined. This means for the actual calculation it does not matter if ships are part of a fleet, or individual ships. Each turn a battle is split into 100 sub-iterations, during each iteration 1/100 of the combined firepower is shot. If after any of the sub-iterations a ship is completely destroyed, this ship is taken out of the equation, and as a result the combined firepower of all ships left is reduced. That means that it is very possible that a ship will not able to deliver all of its firepower, due to being destroyed during the early battle iterations.

Now, how is the firepower distributed? The code checks how many ships are present on the other side, and computes a ratio of how much of the total combined firepower is directed towards each target ship. This happens in such a way that the combined ratio of the firepower totals 100% (of course). This ensures that some ships have a high ratio of...nt of combined firepower faces a large fleet with a high number of (combined) hitpoints, the code will make sure that the small fleet will concentrate only on a small fraction of the large fleet - making sure that even a small fleet has a chance to destroy the one or other ship.

If during any of the 100 sub-iterations a targeted ship is destroyed, an altogether new damage distribution is calculated, and different ships are targeted.

Initially unarmed ships are not targeted but if during any of the sub-iterations all of the armed ships are destroyed then a new damage distribution will again be calculated. This time including the unarmed ships. That means that unarmed ships are completely safe during a battle (and so to speak park in safe distance), until all armed ships are destroyed. At that point the unarmed ships will be targeted as well.

When more than two players are involved in a particular battle all opposition players are treated as a single entity when determining targets.


Tha't's my emphasis, which is unfortunately marred by some typo-like thing. What's that suppose to say Erwin?

In any case, you aren't likely to get a better account of real battles.
30.06.2011 14:47 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
Scurvyllama Player-Rank: 3
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No, If someone has greater knowledge on this I would like to hear what they have to say, I know a certain someone that may know more, not telling who but its not Erwin I'm speaking of.

If I show my evidence now it may become 'fact' and kill this thread

As for that info in the manual, was l just looking at it... prehaps it could be slightly wrong as Erwin did not entirely create those paragraph...

going to check some things be back soonish with more info

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100 sub-iterations....
30.06.2011 15:00 Scurvyllama is offline Send an Email to Scurvyllama Search for Posts by Scurvyllama Add Scurvyllama to your Buddy List
jackjack Player-Rank: 2
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I would say you need to calculate a 20% loss on whatever the battlecalc says to be a more realistic scenario.

Its designed to process quickly so the "characteristics" you notice are just a consquence of how its coded.

maybe it should be called battle simulator, as calculator infers its correct.

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Branko Player-Rank: 3 Branko is a male
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I belive all experienced players know battle calculator is just a rough estimate, but still, maybee a warning on it's page wouldnt hurt, for those that dont Roll Eyes
Though i kinda like to crash my fleet into someone not knowing exactly what will happen, hehe.

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quote:
Originally posted by inerz
sometimes i think outside the box, but not because im original. no. simply because i sometimes forget where the box is.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Branko: 30.06.2011 19:48.

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Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Branko
Though i kinda like to crash my fleet into someone not knowing exactly what will happen, hehe.


Nongolfing at its purest!! Feel The Force, Luke. Big Grin
30.06.2011 20:44 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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quote:
Originally posted by Nongolf
quote:
Originally posted by Branko
Though i kinda like to crash my fleet into someone not knowing exactly what will happen, hehe.


Nongolfing at its purest!! Feel The Force, Luke. Big Grin

exactly!
(ps: i usually chicken out of a fight if i'm not sure, but then my planets get Nongolfed Wink

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quote:
Originally posted by inerz
sometimes i think outside the box, but not because im original. no. simply because i sometimes forget where the box is.

30.06.2011 21:19 Branko is offline Send an Email to Branko Search for Posts by Branko Add Branko to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Scurvyllama
going to check some things be back soonish with more info


Soonish has come and gone!

I know what you're gonna say, but still I wanna hear it Big Grin
02.07.2011 00:43 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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just noticed the command centers are not part of the battle calc. Would be nice to have them in there
02.07.2011 03:15 Ruger is offline Send an Email to Ruger Search for Posts by Ruger Add Ruger to your Buddy List
Scurvyllama Player-Rank: 3
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Scurvyllama
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quote:
Originally posted by Nongolf
quote:
Originally posted by Scurvyllama
going to check some things be back soonish with more info


Soonish has come and gone!

I know what you're gonna say, but still I wanna hear it Big Grin


Soonish is all relative, still trying to find what I'm looking for.... Crying

Well from what I found the manual seems to be dead on, if lacking some info.

Here is something I'm curious about :

"If during any of the 100 sub-iterations a targeted ship is destroyed, an altogether new damage distribution is calculated, and different ships are targeted."

In real battles does this mean that ships are 'locked-on' until destroyed?...the battle calculator doesn't always 'lock-on', but seems to hit one of the ships more than others... of course this probably caused by the order the ships are put in the calculator.
If so does that mean that all targets are reassigned when only 1 ship dies? Such as when two of your ships are targeted 75% of the enemies ships are hitting one and 25% are hitting the other one. So when the ship heavily targeted dies, the one that was lightly targeted may become untargeted when it selects new targets and doesn't happen to retarget that ship.

Nongolf lets not rush this, according to conventional wisdom I am outright wrong... I would like to gather a bit more info before blatantly declaring something. I feel like I would be spending more time trying to prove to people this rather than getting any actual data that I want. Perhaps I can use some other people's info/words to support my statement, not neccesarily in a bad way. But hey if anyone wants to hear it right here, right now just tell me. Just not sure how accurate it is... I usually like to get my facts straight before saying anything though...

Last time I made an 'outragous' statement on this forum it took me about three tries to prove it, only ending in "he[Scurvyllama] is right" by several people... Too much effort for almost nothing I say. Confused

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100 sub-iterations....

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Scurvyllama: 02.07.2011 03:29.

02.07.2011 03:27 Scurvyllama is offline Send an Email to Scurvyllama Search for Posts by Scurvyllama Add Scurvyllama to your Buddy List
tingling Player-Rank: 4 tingling is a male
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I'm still confused :p

(no.. not Confused confused.. just confused.. but not that it matters anyway)

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02.07.2011 05:17 tingling is offline Send an Email to tingling Search for Posts by tingling Add tingling to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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I don't see what's so outrageous about it. You have a scenaio we can duplicate and see for ourselves. I'm not patient enough for another attempt to have you post that scenario, so now I will:

Enter the test-bed galaxy and make 6 corvettes. Identical designs, but different names. Let's call them Ship 1 through 6.

Then find the bad guy and attack his planet (remember to save first). I did the attack 5 times, and every single time only Ships 1 and 2 was ever destroyed. Not once was ships 3-6 destroyed, though they did take damage.

I can't explain it, and it certainly doesn't correlate well with a supposedly random targeting system.

I actually have a deja vu about this whole topic, could we have talked about this before?
02.07.2011 12:48 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
Nongolf Player-Rank: 3 Nongolf is a male
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wow. Really?

Nothing?
03.07.2011 12:48 Nongolf is offline Send an Email to Nongolf Search for Posts by Nongolf Add Nongolf to your Buddy List
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